Germans and Garands

[Jessie]

Reading the Garand thread got me wondering.
I've read that many German soldiers in WWII prized the M1 Carbine and especially the full auto M2 version.
Did they also prize the Garand and use it against Allied forces to any degree?

 

[wbraswell]

I don't think M2 carbines were used in WWII. If so, it was only at the very end. The Germans had some semi-autos, and they were fiercely nationalist, like most of us, so they probably looked down their noses at the Garand, as an ugly oddity, with it's strange clip. I think a lot of the Brits did too. But you can bet the Germans studied the Garand, when they got their hands on it.

 

[Jessie]

You're correct that they were used late in the war(1944) but they were used. Actually the M1 was supposed to be full auto, but never was, thus the M2.

 

[Engine49guy]

I read somewhere that some full select fire M1 Carbines made it to the Pacific theater,
The Germans had the STG45 which was select fire and used a larger intermediate caliber 8mm Kurz (Short).

On a side note Germans troops on the Eastern front supposedly were fond of the semi auto Russian SVT 40 rifle .

 

[Ross3914]

The M2 Carbine was put into production in April 1945. The war in Europe ended in May of 1945. The US also made conversion kits, so those may have made it earlier. Either way, it was pretty much over for the Germans by the time the M2 arrived.

Logistics is the biggest problem in non-standard weapons. The Germans captured large stocks of Soviet equipment early on, so they had a local logistics support system they could use. They even went to the trouble of rebarreling Ppsh-41's to 9mm in order to ease logistics as they ran through the captured ammo.

Remember they also continued production of weapons in countries they occupied. e.g. Nazi marked Browning HP or Norwegian .45 autos. The logistic concerns still existed, but were less since they would obviously continue to produce the ammo alongside the weapons, and in many cases were calibers they already used 8x57, 9mm, etc.

Look at our own use of the AK early in OIF. We had captured sufficient stocks of weapons and ammo and put them to use because we needed them. The Germans had the same situation and used whatever they could lay their hands on.

There were far less US stocks of supplies captured by the Germans on the Western front. Sure, there's "battlefield pick up", but you didn't get whole units issued substitute weapons like the Eastern front.

The carbine was likely popular for the same reason it was popular with the US. It was light and small. A guy that has to lug a Panzerchreck is going to appreciate having something better than a pistol and lighter than a rifle. An NCO/Officer (the same original audience for the M1 Carbine in US use) should be doing more directing his troops than shooting, and a light, small, carbine fits the bill. Espeically if it frees up one more rifle that can go to a shooter, and with the fewer number of rounds a leader will shoot, then the logistics issues aren't as important.

The big place for captured weapons was second and third line troops. POW camp guards, interior guards, police, etc. would have far less of the logistical issues because they wouldn't be in direct combat and need resupply as much. I've seen photos of POW camp guards armed with all sorts of odd-ball stuff.

 

[Jessie]

I read where the M2 was "standardized" in Sept. of 44 and the M3 was Aug. of 45.
And yes, there were upgrade kits available for the M1 but I don't know when they were available. Possibly before the M2 issue.
I'm mainly wondering if the Garand was picked up and used much by the Germans. I would think that there would be ample 30-06 rounds to be had.
If I were a German with a 5 shot bolt action, I would be happy to have an 8 shot semi auto.

 

[BAM-BAM]

My guess is that there would be more battlefield pickups and opportunity for ammo resupply ........

when you are advancing vs. retreating.............




Hence the German assault rifle in "Fury" LOL

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Just recently read, during a night battle on Guadalcanal, the Japanese used captured 1919 Browning machine guns against the Marines.

 

[Jessie]

True, but the Germans certainly didn't lose all the battles.
I know they weren't "issued", just wondering if they were used much.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Because of German reversals in N. Afrika & Italy, the last model of Spitfire fighter used MG-42 machine guns and captured ammo. Ivan

 

[Absalom]

True, but the Germans certainly didn't lose all the battles.
I know they weren't "issued", just wondering if they were used much.

Just based on my personal nearly 40 years experience reading about World War II, a lot of it in German by Germans: No. Simply isn't mentioned. Doesn't come up. Quite in contrast to German soldiers helping themselves to Russian infantry weapons, by the way. Those simply worked better in the extreme weather conditions.

 

[civil1977]

The March issue of Rifle Magazine has an article by Mike Venturino about the German semiauto G41 and G43 rifles. Seems by 1941 the Germans realized they were outgunned using bolt actions and hastily designed the G41. The same magazine has an article on the K98k which features a photo of German troops using an American Model 1919A4 machine gun in a fox hole.

 

[Will Carry]

Because of German reversals in N. Afrika & Italy, the last model of Spitfire fighter used MG-42 machine guns and captured ammo. Ivan

I'm not sure I understand why the British would have used a German infantry support weapon in their fighter planes. The Spit usually used either .303 Brownings, .50 M-2s or 20mm Hispano guns. The Luftwaffe used the 7.92mm MG-17. Yet there were a lot of Spitfires out there used by the Russians and probably the Free French and Free Italians. I would like to know more.....

The Philippinos loved the M-1 carbine. The Garand was just too big for them. MacArthur shipped has many as he could get to the Philippians.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

The Thais, Laotians and Vietnamese also liked the M1 Carbine.
I saw Air America- Laotian guards in Thailand carrying M2 Carbines with the big clips.

 

[JamesArthur60]

Did they also prize the Garand and use it against Allied forces to any degree?

Just a guess on my part, but going from a bolt action infantry rifle to picking up an ammo clip feed semi-auto rifle would be strange and difficult. Especially under combat conditions. You have to find the right ammo, properly load it and be able to breakdown/clean if need be. Seems like more trouble for the average German soldier. I've seen many WWll film/photos and I have only seen German soldiers carrying the American 45 sidearm. But, I'm sure some enemy soldier, somewhere picked up a Garand and turned it on American troops.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

What are the American Impersonator Germans during the Battle of the Bulge?
Did they have enough US arms to equip them?

 

[hoosierone]

They would get M-1 thumbs.

 

[Jessie]

Just a guess on my part, but going from a bolt action infantry rifle to picking up an ammo clip feed semi-auto rifle would be strange and difficult. Especially under combat conditions. You have to find the right ammo, properly load it and be able to breakdown/clean if need be. Seems like more trouble for the average German soldier. I've seen many WWll film/photos and I have only seen German soldiers carrying the American 45 sidearm. But, I'm sure some enemy soldier, somewhere picked up a Garand and turned it on American troops.

Most Germans were pretty intelligent so I imagine they could figure out the manual of arms without too much trouble.
If they used the 1911, they had to do it with that, no?
Based on what Absalom has read, apparently it was a rarity if done. Good enough for me, I was just curious.

 

[CaptRon956]

The Germans were fighting a defensive war by the time they began to encounter American forces. It boiled down to who controlled the battlefield. The allies were advancing quickly & in large numbers so any allied equipment falling into geman hands were very few & slight.
It's possible that a soldier may have picked up a rifle or pistol & kept it as a souvenir for himself or for use as barter however. But if any US weapons ended up in a Germans hand, its was very few...

 

[Will Carry]

The Germans were wading through piles of American equipment at Kasserine Pass. Everything from land mines to Sherman tanks. There was so much American equipment abandoned that the Germans couldn't carry it all.