Pre-War M&P Snub

[410bore]

Jack,

I think the "S"s are indeed for the (then) new hammer block safety. I understand they marked Military Victories on the exterior portion of the gun but don't think they would do this on a civilian model, for aesthetics.

The gun was more than likely a late shipper, like Smith17's 693xxx specimen.

I guess the real deciding factor is IF the gun has the hammer block safety..........

 

[JP@AK]

Jack,

I think the "S"s are indeed for the (then) new hammer block safety. I understand they marked Military Victories on the exterior portion of the gun but don't think they would do this on a civilian model, for aesthetics.

Maybe. I hear you, but remain skeptical. Would they really rework a prewar gun to install the post-1944 sliding hammer block? That would be a lot of work. As we know few of even the early Victories were so re-worked. But I suppose that could have been because of the pressures of wartime production, which would not apply after the war was over.

The gun was more than likely a late shipper, like Smith17's 693xxx specimen.

Very likely. It would be fun to see a letter on this one.

I guess the real deciding factor is IF the gun has the hammer block safety

Yes. That would clinch the discussion.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[JP@AK]

On further reflection, the S could be, as I wrote earlier, a service department mark. That is certainly what it looks like to me. And the reason for the service department work could have been to install the sliding hammer block. Again, it would help to know if this gun has that feature.
A visit to the SD could also have included a reblue into the matt finish, if that is what the customer wanted.

 

[DCWilson]

Sixgun, can we get a side-on photo that shows the hammer cocked? Or can you just tell us if you see the hammer block lowering straight down into the interior as you pull the hammer back?

Until this thread and a review of some of the recently completed sales on Gunbroker, I wasn't aware that any '30s era frames had been built out as two-inch M&Ps after the war. I don't know how many might have received that treatment, but the impression-driven statistician in my brain stem is telling me at least a few dozen and maybe even a hundred or more. Of course the ID Statistician has been revealed as a nitwit from time to time, so he could be completely wrong.

 

[Modified]

The S means the new hammer block safety. It is easy to tell by the hammer. Pull it back and see if the face below the firing pin is rounded or flat.

The face of the hammer, or the piece below the firing pin hole on the gun itself?

I can't find any pictures of how this looks when you cock the gun. Do you know where any may be?

J
I guess the real deciding factor is IF the gun has the hammer block safety..........

I compared it to my 1905 and the piece just below the hole for the firing pin is certainly different. On this gun it's rounded, on the 1905 it's flat.

I'm kind of busy with work at the moment, or I would get some pictures of it. I may have to do that next week for you guys.

 

[410bore]

check the photo here;

if it doesn't have the recessed area in the hammer then its doesn't have the HBS

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-sm...hangeability-between-n-frame-generations.html

 

[Modified]

I just finished up a bit of revolver jenga in my safe and pulled out this gun:

I'm glad to report 2 things:

I can now Identify that hammer block

This Snub does *not* have the hammer block installed.

 

[lowhog]

This pre war snub shipped with wood grips. And they were unnumbered.

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

David Carroll and partner (woodlawn boys) just auctioned off Pace 40's collection of pre-war snubs (about a dozen) on gunbroker. David had a mint pre-war snub on his table at the Louisville gun show this weekend for $3995.
Bill

They must have been his Seconds as I did not see any of his good pre war snubs come up for Auction.Most of them where heavily worn or had finish issues.

 

[JP@AK]

I just finished up a bit of revolver jenga in my safe and pulled out this gun:

Hi!
I assume that is a different revolver than the one we've been discussing in this thread. The serial number on the stocks goes to an S prefix revolver. Is that the number on this gun?
If so, it almost certainly shipped in March, 1946. I have one just a few dozen numbers higher that letters to that month and year, and several more nearby in my database that also shipped at that time. All the nearby numbers have 5" barrels. What is the barrel length on that one?

Also, on this one, the S for the sliding hammer block is in the correct location, dispelling the notion they did not do this on "commercial" variants.

 

[410bore]

that is a different gun, its a Square Butt. he is showing the "S" on the sideplate in this pic.

 

[JP@AK]

its a Square Butt

Yes. Should have realized that looking at the stocks. Of course my main interest is the barrel length, wanting to add this one to my database on S prefix guns.

 

[Modified]

Oh yeah, that's another gun I used to educate myself on what the hammer block looks like. I have had that one for quite a while, theres more about it here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/347923-very-early-pre-model-10-a.html

 

[DWalt]

If there's a problem in identifying if it has or has not been fitted with the 1945 hammer safety, the sideplate can be removed. Then there can be no question. Retrofitting of the pre-1945 K-frames is not a simple matter due to the machining involved, and my understanding is that it cost about half the price of a new revolver to do it. That's why only few were retrofitted.

 

[Modified]

If there's a problem in identifying if it has or has not been fitted with the 1945 hammer safety, the sideplate can be removed. Then there can be no question. Retrofitting of the pre-1945 K-frames is not a simple matter due to the machining involved, and my understanding is that it cost about half the price of a new revolver to do it. That's why only few were retrofitted.

Would that other gun with the S on the side plate be an example of the retrofit? Or do you mean sending a finished gun back to have the hammer block installed?

I checked my other pre/post war snub which also does not have the hammer block like that early post war M&P. That gun is in this thread, it's pretty weird for other reasons:http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...17-ill-ever-own-maybe-ever.html#post138084252

 

[JP@AK]

Oh yeah, that's another gun I used to educate myself on what the hammer block looks like. I have had that one for quite a while, theres more about it here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/347923-very-early-pre-model-10-a.html

Thanks. I've added it to the database, along with the later gun shown in that thread.

S814183 almost certainly shipped in March, 1946, along with a bunch of other 5" barrel examples. Nearly all of them wore the prewar style Magna stocks, like yours. A few nearby numbers went to the Cleveland Police Department in February of the same year. Those had 4" barrels.

I have not identified any of the .38 M&P revolvers with numbers higher than S816xxx that shipped with the prewar style Magna stocks. It seems they ran out of them at about that time, which appears to correlate with the end of April, 1946.

S920069 probably shipped in about August of 1947. I show a group of 6" examples clustered around that serial number and they shipped during July and August and maybe September of that year. It has the knurled extractor rod end, instead of the knob seen on your earlier gun. It also has the pressed hammer pivot stud, unlike the threaded type on your S814183 example. I can't see it in the pictures, but I believe it will also have the newer style cylinder release, that is flat on the top and bottom instead of tapered or flared like the earlier latch.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

 

[JP@AK]

Would that other gun with the S on the side plate be an example of the retrofit?

No. All of the S prefix guns had the sliding hammer block safety. That is exactly where the S prefix came from. It was a remainder from the military SV prefix frames, some of which were left over from the war. Once civilian production ramped up again, the V was dropped but the S was retained.

 

[Jstonefish]

Very interesting post that cleared up some questions I had.
Attached pictures are from my C prefix, Post war snub.
Has similar "S" markings on barrel flat and frame, and of course has the hammer block safety since it is a '48 or '49 revolver.
I think Jack's comments on these being Service marks are accurate.
I appreciate the continued education!