Un- documented gun

[Rastoff]

Dealers are required to maintain completed forms for 20 years in the case of completed sales, and for 5 years where the sale was disapproved as a result of the NICS check."

Yes, you're correct and 20 years is the correct number.

The point remains the same; they keep records of gun sales.

 

[Road Rat]

Yes, you're correct and 20 years is the correct number.

The point remains the same; they keep records of gun sales.

Yes, BUT, there is NO government database - that is ILLEGAL...

 

[jrd1976]

Yes, BUT, there is NO government database - that is ILLEGAL...

And everybody knows the government obeys all its own laws.

 

[Alisdad]

One implication I could see is a question of your judgment at a civil hearing after a shooting involving the "undocumented gun."Whether it's right or wrong, most attorneys would love to show a lack of good judgment on your behalf by possessing and using an "undocumented gun." There does not need to be a real lack of judgment on your part; however, it could be used to plant a seed in the mind of jurors or a judge. Also, Internet searches may reveal you posed this question in the past. I would look up the laws and do what ever you need to do to remedy this. It may not even be an issue. However if after research it's still unclear, you may want to look at using another gun.

 

[Rhetorician]

Rhetorician Question?

I have my CCP ,but most often carry an un-documented firearm. What are the implications or problems associated with that?
Just wondering if I happen to be stopped and checked. Will the officer do a serial number check on the gun and what happens if he does and finds its not registered to me?

Jack,

I can share with you what a couple of LEOs here in TN. told me. I had an old Colt 32 Police Positive inherited from my father and wanted to find out something about it. Little did I know that it was so old there were no records kept back then.

But on to the moral, LEOs told me if they ran the numbers on the piece and it was stolen or used in a crime, although I had not done the deed; if it was tied to one they would have to come and ask me for the firearm.

Does that help?

My two cents worth.

rd

 

[ken158]

I have my CCP ,but most often carry an un-documented firearm. What are the implications or problems associated with that?
Just wondering if I happen to be stopped and checked. Will the officer do a serial number check on the gun and what happens if he does and finds its not registered to me?

Registered? Does any state have a registration?? Buying a gun and filling out a 4473 only indicates that you are not a prohibited from making a purchase.

 

[GatorFarmer]

SC, as opposed to NC, did not require a purchase permit or anything of the like for a handgun, less anyone else get the two states mixed up.

I have never lived in NC, but apparently they had a purchase permit scheme for handguns similar to the one I grew up with in Michigan. Though Michigan had a "safety inspection" and not registration.

My wife's family lived in the NC mountains. Mountain folks did not tend to register their guns or concern themselves about such things.

Wyoming has even less in the way of laws, though any guns you make for yourself, you have to write "Made in Wyoming" on. Sharpie will do. With a large number of ranches, little to do, and ready access to machine tools, guns are made by hobbyists here with some regularity.

 

[Gamecock]

Ask here:

Carolina Shooters Club

 

[ISCS Yoda]

First - in the few jurisdictions that I am familiar with, and especially Texas, the one I am VERY familiar with, police officers do not confiscate guns and check serial numbers as a routine matter. 95% of the time they don't even want to see the gun, never mind run a serial number check on it.

Second - you just can't run a serial number check on a firearm. If it wasn't used in the commission of a crime, or apparently stolen, or in the hands of a known felon, nobody runs serial numbers willy nilly because you were stopped for speeding, or third degree lurking. It's just not done.

Third -

I have my CCP ,but most often carry an un-documented firearm. What are the implications or problems associated with that?

We like to call it "without administrative encumbrance". What that ordinarily means is that you obtained the firearm without a Form 4473. In most states that is still a way you can acquire a firearm legally. In some states it could mean an unregistered firearm but if you live in a state where all firearms are registered and you're carrying an unregistered handgun - and an LEO actually does check - you're going to jail. In most states an LEO cannot check for registration because most states don't have such a thing. 4473s are not registration. They're just required Federal paperwork required to be kept by a federally licensed dealer, along with a bound book record of all guns in and out of the dealership. They are the dealers' records. They are not Federal records until and unless the dealer closes up shop and sends them to the BATFE, as required if he closes his doors. I still await proof that the BATFE has some little gnome somewhere logging the data into computers. The records are stores, sure, but uploaded? Someone has yet to prove that to me and I have asked here and there many times. So, for most of us, there is no "implication" of any kind.

Just wondering if I happen to be stopped and checked. Will the officer do a serial number check on the gun and what happens if he does and finds its not registered to me?

HE WILL NOT! Well, unless that's required where you live. Otherwise the officer is unlikely to want to even see your gun, as noted above, never mind run a serial number. None of my guns are "registered to me". Even if I drive into a state where there is gun registration, if my CHL is accepted there, then what? I possess an unregistered gun in the State of Confusion - what are they going to do about it? Nothing. That's why they won't check.

An opposite example - suppose you're in New York City - it could happen; I travel there 4 or more times annually. I don't have permission to carry a gun there so I do not. Too risky! Mandatory 1 year in jail. But suppose you live there - LEO stops you and you do have a gun and you do have a carry permit - well, you better have that little piece of paper or plastic with you because in NYC he will ask you for it - because they like nothing better than an easy weapons collar. That gun IS registered to you - it's ON your permit. You better not have one that is "undocumented".

See the difference? There, they don't have undocumented guns. Having one is a crime. Most places all guns are undocumented, not counting the 4473s and bound books.

I could go on but I think the point is clear. If you do not have registration in your state all of your guns are "undocumented" as far as the state is concerned.

 

[Rastoff]

Yes, BUT, there is NO government database - that is ILLEGAL...

I believe you are correct, but I'd still like a link to the law saying so.

The reason I want it is for reference. There are a lot of people who say a lot of things are illegal when they don't really know or not. For example, I hear people say that carrying a concealed handgun into a bank is illegal, even if you have a license. That isn't true. Carrying into a bank, as long as you have a carry license, is perfectly legal in CA.

So, knowing the law that says the government can't maintain a database would be helpful. I can't find one so, I thought you might know of one.

 

[B3500]

I believe you are correct, but I'd still like a link to the law saying so.

The reason I want it is for reference. There are a lot of people who say a lot of things are illegal when they don't really know or not. For example, I hear people say that carrying a concealed handgun into a bank is illegal, even if you have a license. That isn't true. Carrying into a bank, as long as you have a carry license, is perfectly legal in CA.

So, knowing the law that says the government can't maintain a database would be helpful. I can't find one so, I thought you might know of one.

Is this what you were after?

From:

https://twg2a.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/goa-background-checks-atfs-illegal-copying-of-4473-forms/

The copying of 4473 forms has happened despite the prohibition in 18 USC 923(g)(1)(D) which specifically prohibits anyone in the Justice Department from "seiz[ing] any records or other documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law."


The section of law this is referring to is;

18 U.S.C. § 923 : US Code - Section 923: Licensing

 

[Comrad]

That would be a problem in NY, every handgun has to be listed on your permit.

 

[Rastoff]

Is this what you were after?

From:

https://twg2a.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/goa-background-checks-atfs-illegal-copying-of-4473-forms/

The copying of 4473 forms has happened despite the prohibition in 18 USC 923(g)(1)(D) which specifically prohibits anyone in the Justice Department from "seiz[ing] any records or other documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law."


The section of law this is referring to is;

18 U.S.C. § 923 : US Code - Section 923: Licensing

Thanks for providing that, but it doesn't answer the question.

That law is largely pertaining to FFLs and Collectors. It says the ATF can't seize records unless they pertain to a specific case. It doesn't say they can't maintain a database of gun owners. At least not that I can see. That particular law is very long. I read through it, but might easily have missed something.

 

[Rastoff]

I found it. It's 18 U.S. Code § 926, but I'll bet none of you knew that. Further, the way I see it, this code doesn't specifically make it illegal for them to maintain records.

 

[Cpo1944]

Many thanks to all of you fine Gentlemen for the good info. What originally prompted the inquiry was I saw a video segment on "Guns America Digest" where a fellow named Hank Strange was stopped for too dark window tint and he was disarmed by the LEO and they ran his CCW and firearm serial numbers and generally over reacted and it got me to thinking about what if.... I do not know how to post the video I sure wish some one with good computer skills would do it for me, hint ,hint, hint...

 

[Road Rat]

Quote: Second - you just can't run a serial number check on a firearm. If it wasn't used in the commission of a crime, or apparently stolen, or in the hands of a known felon, nobody runs serial numbers willy nilly because you were stopped for speeding, or third degree lurking. It's just not done. Unquote

HEY, Hollywood has been doing it for at least SIXTY years that I know of!!!

They can make a phone call to see if a particular handgun is "registered" to the 'suspect'.....LA, NY, STL, all the big cities have instant access to all the details - at least in the movies!!

 

[SMSgt]

Florida has no firearm registration, does not list firearms on its carry license, and frankly could not care less what you carry.

 

[wheelgunguy]

Many thanks to all of you fine Gentlemen for the good info. What originally prompted the inquiry was I saw a video segment on "Guns America Digest" where a fellow named Hank Strange was stopped for too dark window tint and he was disarmed by the LEO and they ran his CCW and firearm serial numbers and generally over reacted and it got me to thinking about what if.... I do not know how to post the video I sure wish some one with good computer skills would do it for me, hint ,hint, hint...

Here's the link to the video you asked for (I think).

https://youtu.be/pC-bTdyHh44

 

[Cpo1944]

Here's the link to the video you asked for (I think).

https://youtu.be/pC-bTdyHh44

Yes Sir that is the one. I wish I knew how you got it posted here. Thank a bunch for helping me out.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

Geez. A few weeks ago my wife was watching "Nashville" on TV when a line caught my attention. Seems a female character named Sadie had been in fear of her abusive ex-husband and had ended up shooting him with an "unregistered gun." They went on and on about the "unregistered gun" and "illegal gun." I'm afraid I went off a little bit over sloppy writing and stupid writers who couldn't do the research that Tennessee didn't have the same laws as California, Illinois, New York, and the rest of the Social Democratic Republics. Her response was, "It's just a TV show!" The problem is that sheeple actually believe the stuff they hear on television. (Like CSI wrapping up a case in Saran Wrap® in 30 minutes, less commercials.)

Check your local laws and the laws of the states that accept your handgun license (concealed, otherwise, or both). Learn them. Obey them. (Unless they are completely intolerable, in which case you must move to a free state immediately.)