Plastic and Pot Metal

[DocB]

I am not a dealer and I am not an expert on new gun prices either wholesale or retail. This morning I got an EMail from the NRA containing a number of advertisements for some new guns, mostly Colts and Walthers. Many of them were 22's but some were 9mm and 40 caliber. Every one I looked at was priced under $299 including a Colt M4 in 22 and a Colt 1911 in 22. I was amazed. It seems that this all started with Tarus around the first of the year when we all started seeing $200 guns in our local stores. This deflation of new gun prices seems to be contagious. In a way this makes me happy since I would like to see one billion guns in the hands of the public in this country. In analysis though it appears that the gun manufacturers have been making massive profits on their new guns for several years now. I guess it all comes down to the cost of raw materials. When you make a gun out of plastic and pot metal (aluminum) your raw material cost is very low. No longer do we see much steel and wood. When competition gets tough these half-price sales become dominant. My conclusion is that you should never attempt to invest in a new plastic/pot metal wonder. You're buying a tool that will diminish in value as time passes. We all need a hammer, and my Glock would make a pretty good one in an emergency. . .but it is not and will never be an investment. What bothers me is having to wade through the hundreds of guns that are new plastic junk in my local pawn shops to get to the two or three vintage Smith & Wesson handguns that I might want to purchase. So much junk clouding my vision. So many tools. We've all seen the signs in the pawn shops stating that they don't buy or pawn old VCR's or old TV's or old lawn mowers. I'm wondering if some day we will see the newer plastic guns included on these signs. Buyers beware! Just my opinion and analysis. What do you think about all this price deflation?

 

[quinn]

Yer preaching to the choir.

 

[Voyager28]

The preceding is the reason I have not purchased a "New" new gun in over 15 years and have absolutely no plan of doing so.

Bob

 

[Ματθιας]

Believe it or not, some models of Glocks are collectable: RTF frames, fish gill slides, and colors like OD and FDE.

 

[pharmer]

Having a Sig 226 and a 228 I "had to have" a Mosquito as soon as they came out. Half the price and none of the Sig quality. Since it would not feed three cartridges consecutively, I sold it at a loss. Joe

 

[Arik]

Believe it or not, some models of Glocks are collectable: RTF frames, fish gill slides, and colors like OD and FDE.

Including Austrian imports! I have one!!

To be honest I don't count the 22lr firearms. They were (almost) always cheaper. A Ruger 10/22 is cheaper than the mini 14. Always has been. Same with 1911s. I never saw any interest in 22 so to me their price is neither here nor there. I look at defense firearm value, which did drop but not across the board. While Colt 6920 was once $1100 +/- now can be had for $900. On the other hand Glock ' prices didn't budge. New are about the same price ... $500 - $550 range and used are always in the $350.

 

[LittleCooner]

I thought E C Bishop and Reinhardt ***en went out of business in MO because people quite buying nice walnut stocked firearms that were works of art and could be handed down as family heirlooms. Plenty of walnut still growing in the Ozarks. Then most of the steel mills moved to China, no one wanted those nice polished steel and deep blued heirlooms and works of art. We (America) have moved on, you are living in the past. We are "state of the art" country. Disposable is the key word of the day. Your TV from China tears up, dispose of it in the trash and run, don't walk, to Wallyworld a purchase a new, cheap, replacement of plastic and pot metal., Coffeepot or microwave tear up, dispose and repeat run to Wallyworld for more cheap junk from china. Same with computer and cell phones. And you dare question the issue of cheap plastic and pot metal firearms? Where have you been hiding, what we need is more "Saturday Night specials" that are cheap and disposable. They decrease in value with every shot as the wear on the plastic and cheap soft pot metal is there. Those china worker have got to have a job. Its so cold of you to lament the Bishop and ***en workers of old and all those Americans who took pride in producing a work of art to hold, enjoy and pass on to the next generation. Get with the program, Disposable Society of Idiots - DS of I and you thought we were still know as the US of A?

 

[shocker]

Who's to say an engineered polymer isn't a better material than steel? It's all in the application thereof.

I rather enjoy my Samsung 50" Plasma television. I suppose I should long for my family's 25" Zenith from the 1960's that used 750 watts and needed service calls to replace burned out vacuum tubes. But hey it had a ton of metal in it and a real wood cabinet.

 

[BB57]

The strong dollar is currently one of the factors with some of the low priced European made firearms being a little lower priced than usual.


A couple of thoughts though...

I own both a Walther PP in .22LR, actually a former British L66A1, as well as one of the newer Umarex Walther PPK/S .22LR pistols.

Owning and shooting both, I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised and impressed with how well the Zamak cast frame and slide PPK/S .22LR pistol shoots. It is just as accurate and even more reliable than my Walther PP in .22LR and the newly designed magazine is far more reliable than the original Walther design (for a variety of well thought out engineering reason that would take their own post to cover.

In fact, the overall engineering on the PPK/S .22LR is excellent, doing what good engineering is supposed to do - deliver high performance with less material, and/or less expensive materials, and/or less cost. None of that will appeal to a wood and blued steel purist, but from a pure engineering perspective, it's hard to fault.

I can make the same comparisons between my Colt M4 Tactical .22LR and a similarly configured dedicated .22LR AR-15. The M4 is just as accurate and even more reliable, at a lot less cost than building a dedicated .22LR AR-15, and the engineering and materials use in the Colt is as impressive as it is in the PPK/S .22LR. And of course once again the purists will find this to be deeply offensive, but it is what it is.

The same arguments apply to the current generation of plastic framed pistols. They don't appeal to me, and I'll probably never like them, but they do a good job of putting rounds down range in a reliable manner at a lot lower production cost than my preferred 1911s, Hi Powers, Walther PP series pistols or even my CZ 75 Compact.

----

Times have changed, and while people like to complain about the newer plastic and zinc alloy firearms, most of those people also complain about the cost of well made blued steel and walnut firearms. If you've priced a new Model 94 lately, you'll realize that a new one costs 2-3 times what you'd pay for a very nice post 63 Model 94.

----

The Ruger 10/22 has also changed. If came out in 1964 for a price of $54.50. If you correct for inflation and look at the buying power of $54.50 in 1964, you'll find that a comparable 2015 price would be $415.96. But a quick search on line will show new blued/black anodized wood stocked 10/22s selling for between $249 and $259, and synthetic stocked 10/22s can be found for as low as $233.

That $233 10/22 today would have sold for $30.53 in 1964 - right in there with, or not too far above, the entry level Savage, Springfield and Stevens .22 rimfire semi-auto rifles of the day.

Back in the day, the 10/22 was actually a pretty upscale .22 rimfire, designed to appeal to owners wanting a little more quality in a .22 rifle. I wanted one as a kid, but my depression era raised dad could never justify the extra cost and I ended up waiting until I had my own paycheck to buy my own 10/22.

Over the years however, rugged switched to birch and then synthetic stocks, and switched to polymer trigger housings in a long series of cost cutting measures to the point where the 10/22 is now nothing more than a low end, entry level rimfire. Yet it's more popular than ever and Ruger is selling them by the truckload.

You can't really blame Ruger, they are just giving the market what it wants.

 

[dmar]

Plain and simple, the post-panic gun market is way oversold right now. The collectable market is still doing pretty well, but the general new gun market is way off. Hey, supply and demand affects prices both ways....

It'll come around in time as the market stabilizes, even quicker if Hillary gets in office...

As for how I feel about it, I hate what it does to the value of guns that I bought "high." But, if you're buying, now is a good time to find some deals. Those pot metal and plastic .22s are super cheap to make, with lots of margin built into the pricing. Plenty of room for manufacturers to lower prices and increase sales. Same thing with the AR deals going on out there, and the market is flooded with the things. As for Colt, they are going through some major financial issues, and they are dropping prices to move product. I really hate that I'm short on money right now...!

 

[NZshooter]

since when is aluminium "pot metal" ? Guess there's alot of S&W pistols with pot metal frames and "Pot Weight" revolvers out there

 

[Arik]

I thought E C Bishop and Reinhardt ***en went out of business in MO because people quite buying nice walnut stocked firearms that were works of art and could be handed down as family heirlooms. Plenty of walnut still growing in the Ozarks. Then most of the steel mills moved to China, no one wanted those nice polished steel and deep blued heirlooms and works of art. We (America) have moved on, you are living in the past. We are "state of the art" country. Disposable is the key word of the day. Your TV from China tears up, dispose of it in the trash and run, don't walk, to Wallyworld a purchase a new, cheap, replacement of plastic and pot metal., Coffeepot or microwave tear up, dispose and repeat run to Wallyworld for more cheap junk from china. Same with computer and cell phones. And you dare question the issue of cheap plastic and pot metal firearms? Where have you been hiding, what we need is more "Saturday Night specials" that are cheap and disposable. They decrease in value with every shot as the wear on the plastic and cheap soft pot metal is there. Those china worker have got to have a job. Its so cold of you to lament the Bishop and ***en workers of old and all those Americans who took pride in producing a work of art to hold, enjoy and pass on to the next generation. Get with the program, Disposable Society of Idiots - DS of I and you thought we were still know as the US of A?

If I buy a fancy gun with fancy wood I'm not going to use it! Why would I risk damaging it? A fake wood or even better...plastic. ..I can use it and not be afraid to knock it around some. If I don't use it then I just wasted money. If I want art I'll buy a statue or a painting. If I want a firearm I'll buy a gun and not an heirloom. What's this fascination with passing stuff down? I can pass down a modern gun too. They don't have a expiration dates. Wood grips on a gun? Not if I'm going to shoot it and use,it in its intention. If I'm not using it then why did I waste money on it?

 

[Pisgah]

Yeah, and what's with all the jumbo jet airliners these days? The reliable ol' DC-3 is plenty good enough. And what about cars that run for 200K+ miles with nothing but infrequent routine oil changes and get 30 MPG? I'd much rather have a good old Chevy that I had to tune every six months, got 12 MPG downhill, and was totally clapped-out by 100K. ;-)

 

[wheelgunguy]

Variety in any marketplace is a good thing. Buy what you like and don't buy what you don't like. Having a lot of choices is wonderful.

I personally haven't bought a lot of guns priced on the lower end. That is except for my "pot metal" 642 which is an investment in my safety. The best kind in my opinion. I do like seeing a fair number of low priced guns. Because there are many people in this country that live in much more dangerous areas than I do that deserve to be able to protect themselves.

As far as investments go, I think I am in the majority here. I want the ones I have made to go up tremendously and be able to make my future ones at the lowest price possible. Regardless of what they are.

 

[BB57]

I think the OP really is talking about zinc alloys like Zamak. They are often derogatorily referred to as "pot metal".

The problem with pot metal alloys s that they are cheap, low purity zinc alloys where the high levels of impurities are known to cause cracking and dimensional instability over time.

The basic assumption is a little flawed however, as the various Zamak alloys used in firearms are tightly controlled high purity alloys that have proven to be very durable over time. The Henry .22LR lever actions for example are an outgrowth of the old Ithaca Model 49 and Model 72 .22 LR lever guns. These carbines, like the Henry .22LR carbines use a Zamak receiver with a cosmetic cover placed over it.

They've all demonstrated a great deal of dimensional stability over time and not too many people complain about the Henry .22LRs.

Personally, I prefer the Winchester 9422 and the Browning BL-22 as they are traditional blued steel and walnut, but that's just me, and they cost two to three times what you pay for a Henry.

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

Who's to say an engineered polymer isn't a better material than steel? It's all in the application thereof.

I rather enjoy my Samsung 50" Plasma television. I suppose I should long for my family's 25" Zenith from the 1960's that used 750 watts and needed service calls to replace burned out vacuum tubes. But hey it had a ton of metal in it and a real wood cabinet.

I like the way you think!

 

[Hedrin]

Who's to say an engineered polymer isn't a better material than steel?

Police Department Guns' "actually fall apart"

 

[Watchdog]

I'd much rather have a good old Chevy that I had to tune every six months, got 12 MPG downhill, and was totally clapped-out by 100K. ;-)

Hold on a second now. I'd sure like to have my '72 Nova Super Sport with the 350 and Hurst 4-speed back. Put headers, an Edelbrock High Rise with a Holley 850 on it...had a friend pin stripe "Saturday Night Special" under the driver's window...shoot, what you talkin' about?

Sorry for thread drift...got carried away there.

 

[Pisgah]

Hold on a second now. I'd sure like to have my '72 Nova Super Sport with the 350 and Hurst 4-speed back. Put headers, an Edelbrock High Rise with a Holley 850 on it...had a friend pin stripe "Saturday Night Special" under the driver's window...shoot, what you talkin' about?

Sorry for thread drift...got carried away there.

Don't get me wrong -- I have a sentimental streak a mile wide, and would gladly cruise with you in your SS! I love my 1950's S&W revolvers and Marlin leverguns, too. But, times do change. And besides, whereas some new guns are indeed junk -- some old ones were, too!

 

[shouldazagged]

My only remaining handguns are two Smith revolvers, my J-frame EDC and a K-frame on the shelf in the head of my bed. Both are all steel and I love and trust them. But I've owned two Glocks that were structural polymer and steel, not Tupperware and "pot metal". Both were fine, rock-solid-dependable pistols, if not as pleasing to the eye as my pre-B CZ75.

I think it's a serious mistake to lump all polymer and alloy guns with the Jennings-Lorcin-older Hi-Point crowd, but some purists seem very willing and quick to do that.