Conceal Carry Class denying 2nd Amendment

[scooter123]

When I took my CPL training, both times, the rules issued when I signed up for the class stated that NO AMMUNITION was permitted in the classroom. We could keep our firearms with us in a range bag or case but there must not be ONE SINGLE round of ammunition in our possession. For the actual range time part of the class we could purchase ammunition from the range. It was also stated on that rule sheet than under no circumstances should our handgun leave that range bag or case until at the firing line of the range. At the very end of these rules it was stated in bold "FAILURE TO ABIDE BY ANY OF THESE RULES WILL RESULT IN YOUR EJECTION FROM THE FACILITY AND FORFEITURE OF YOUR CLASS FEES".

Now, reading between the lines it becomes rather obvious why these rules are in place. Plain and simple it's because some people are just too damned dumb to trust. Look, we are all grown ups here and I rather suspect smart enough to be trustworthy. However, we have all seen the stories (yeah it's happened multiple times) about some "safety instructor putting a gun to his head, pulling the trigger, and blowing his brains out. We have also probably seen that Police Officer, who was the only one in the room capable of safely handling a Glock 20, shoot himself in the leg.

So, the question at hand is a simple one. Do you wish to be safe from potential lethal consequences will taking a Concealed Carry class or do you want your 2nd Ammendment rights no matter what. Personally I would rather not get shot. As for those applying for a permit and taking a necessary class being trustworthy, don't be so naive.

There have been MULTIPLE examples of Convicted Felons attending these classes and actually applying for a permit here in Michigan. There have also been cases where people with Arrest Warrants issued against them actually go and apply for a permit. Note, here in Michigan most of the fingerprinting is done at the County Sheriff's central station and that is a really good way to quickly weed out the Felons and those with Warrants. Yeah, people really are that DUMB.

 

[Comrad]

The term "negligent discharge" comes to mind.

 

[Rastoff]

I am a certified NRA instructor. They do indeed have a requirement that states no live ammo is allowed in the classroom. However, the NRA firearms instruction is the industry standard, they don't set the standard. It's just that way because they are the most recognized organization.

I also teach concealed carry classes. I recognize the value of keeping live ammo out of a teaching environment. Frankly, I'm surprised that others don't see the value in this? No live ammo and it's impossible to have a negligent discharge.

I've heard this complaint more than once on the internet, but never had one complaint in any class. Why it is such a big deal?

 

[spad124]

If I recall correctly isn't one of the cardinal safety rules to always keep the muzzle of you firearm pointed in a safe direction, such as down range? Where is down range in a classroom setting? Certainly not in front of you and, except for the last row, not behind you. If your weapon is on your hip and pointed at the floor, usually concrete, there is a richotet hazard.

If everyone in the class is experienced with firearms, the risk is lessened. However, in northern Illinois where I live many concealed weapon purchasers are first time gun owners. I 'd rather the first time owners have some instruction before combining firearms and ammo next to me. Illinois CCW licensure requires a live fire component. I'd feel more comfortable if new gun owners first loaded and fired their weapons under the watchful eye of a RO.

 

[Rastoff]

Where is down range in a classroom setting?

In any class including gun handling instruction, the instructor will define where "down range" is. I tell people up front that we will be handling firearms in the class and that combined with live ammo is a bad combination.

If everyone in the class is experienced with firearms, the risk is lessened.

I've had the opposite experience. In my classes it has always been those who claim the most experience who have the poorest gun handling practices. The new shooters generally have a healthy respect and are very muzzle conscious. The "experienced" tend to lean toward complacency. Those are the ones who are most likely to have an ND.

Just look at the ND threads on this forum. They are always from those with experience.

This is not a poke at you spad124, it's just what I've observed.

 

[BB57]

/....Such "industry standards" are immaterial. There are state mandated standards as to how a concealed carry class should be taught. The NRA (a private organization) can set all the standards they wish, and they can suggest that those standards be used, but states aren't required to recognize them. In this state, instructors and potential instructors are required to submit their classroom/range curriculum to the North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission. These classroom/range curriculums must satisfy North Carolina law and the Commission...the NRA has absolutely no say so in the matter, nor is an instructor in North Carolina required to be NRA certified. North Carolina accepts alternative methods of certification in addition to NRA certification.

The bottom line is that the NRA is a private organization, and a lobbying organization at that. No state is going to allow them to set policy, rules, or regulations that govern firearms.

You're missing the point.

There are numerous fields where an organization (private of otherwise) establishes the minimum standards for professional conduct. It has nothing to do with a state legislating a requirement, but it has everything to do with liability and judging whether an instructor conducted him or her self in a professional manner - especially after an accident occurs.

I guarantee that if you conduct a classroom session with student firearms and live ammunition present and you or one of your students gets shot, your professionalism will be in serious question. You may not get hung out to dry by the state of NC, but you'll be judged harshly if you violated "industry standard" protocols that are by and large determined by NRA recommendations, policies, and practices for NRA instructors, because those recommendations, policies and practices have become the national standard by default.

Now...if you want to learn that the hard way, that's your choice.

 

[vito]

It appears that many of you don't see the irrationality of this rule. In a class intended to certify people for a concealed carry license, the instructor is basically saying that even already licensed individuals are not to be trusted to carry a concealed firearm safely. This just feeds into the belief of the anti-gun, anti-2nd Amendment supporters that carrying a concealed firearm by anyone other than a law enforcement officer is just an accident waiting to happen and should not be allowed. To me it seems mind boggling. Either you accept that the 2nd Amendment documents the natural right to keep and bear arms or you don't.

In fairness, the indoor pistol club that I belong to went through something similar when we first achieved legal concealed carry in Illinois just last year. Initially the club banned concealed carry within the club's range building, and then logic prevailed and the rule was changed. If a gun club, where every member is a member of the NRA, would not allow the carrying of a concealed gun by a LICENSED individual, then it would be playing right into the hands of the people who probably would like to see the club itself banned or closed.

Here in IL, where we cannot carry in schools, courthouses and numerous other locations, we are allowed to carry in churches, banks, restaurants, etc. unless the owner has properly posted the location with a "no guns allowed" sign. If you can sit in church with a person right behind you with a concealed gun, why couldn't you sit in a classroom preparing you for the Utah license with someone carrying a concealed gun behind you? Maybe those of you who are uncomfortable with truly honoring the 2nd Amendment should not be carrying a gun yourself because you are obviously attributing your lack of trust in the safety of carrying a gun to everyone around you.

 

[LenS]

Vito, putting NRA's rules aside for a moment:

- If it is a classroom setting with NO GUN HANDLING involved, I wouldn't (and don't for my proprietary classes) have any issue with students being armed.
- BUT if there is gun handling involved in the class, keeping track of which guns are loaded and which aren't as they are being handled is NOT a task that I would want to deal with as a student or instructor.

And as a LEO, I have witnessed (and been victim of, luckily with no additional holes) many violations of muzzle discipline and handling of loaded/unloaded firearms with people in front of said guns (downrange or in one case my Lt. handling his sidearm and putting it down pointed at my gut in his office, in another case a detective putting his personal loaded firearm on the table I was working at pointed at me, as he went to his locker to get his service firearm)! I find it much safer on a range with civilian gun owners than anywhere near fellow LEOs handling guns or qualifying at the range. YMMV

 

[old&slow]

NRA has a rule that instructors have to follow and that is that NO ammo be in the room where a class is being taught.

NO live ammo in my classrooms and I prefer if you leave your firearms in your vechile until we go to the range for live fire. I have 'Blue Guns' to handle in the classroom & my own personally firearms that I control and can show different types of actions and how they work , etc.

When I went to USPSA / NROI training it was stated, Do Not bring firearms or ammo to the classroom..

Most, if not all shooting ranges / shooting matches I go to are Cold Ranges. Firearms are not loaded until told to do so by the Range Officer.

Even the Police officer matches that I sometimes RO ,, the range is Cold. Do not load until told to do so by the RO.

 

[OKFC05]

If you can sit in church with a person right behind you with a concealed gun, why couldn't you sit in a classroom preparing you for the Utah license with someone carrying a concealed gun behind you?

Simple answer. In church, the gun must remain concealed unless drawn to counter a threat. Drawing a gun n a public place is "lethal force" in most states and must be justified, else it is a crime.

In class, we are all going to be handling the guns at various points in the class, including working the action. No sane instructor is going to demonstrate with a loaded gun inside a room, nor allow students to demonstrate with a loaded gun, EXCEPT ON THE RANGE.
In the NRA Personal Defense Classes, we spend half the time on the range, on a firing line, for the reason that the student ARE DEOMSTRATING AND PRACTICING WITH LIVE FIRE. Targets on a safe backstop are provided for each student on the firing line.
These are advanced courses, and each student must demonstrate range safety before being enrolled, either by taking a prerequisite class or an actual firing test.

I notice you were in the Army. I instructed full time 3 years for the Air Force. All military weapons courses I have seen use inert weapons or mockups in the classroom, and allow NO LIVE MUNITIONS until the class moves to the appropriate range. You should be used to this concept.

Maybe those of you who are uncomfortable with truly honoring the 2nd Amendment should not be carrying a gun yourself because you are obviously attributing your lack of trust in the safety of carrying a gun to everyone around you.

This emotional insult has no basis in fact. If nobody were willing to be instructors to satisfy state-mandated class requirements, how would you get your license? We don't make the rules, we take the time and risks to help others meet the rules and get their licenses, for not much money, I might add.
By the way, Oklahoma training requirements (CLEET), NRA certification requirements, and the insurance company all forbid live ammunition in the classroom and reloads on the range for live fire.
I keep a loaner gun and factory ammo available for people who show up for class with reloads, although the pre-class handout has all the state rules listed on it.

 

[federali]

Remember?

Perhaps 20 years ago, there was the case of the firearms instructor who loaded his gun to leave the range for lunch, then forgot to unload it upon his return. They were conducting decision/reaction exercises and that instructor shot and killed a rookie officer during an exercise.

There are two separate issues at play here: if the guns are needed to demonstrate or practice, such as reloading with dummy ammunition, grip, stance, sight alignment, then it must necessarily be a cold range. If the guns are not needed for the lesson plan at hand, then there's no real need to disarm, especially in a gun store.

 

[F75gunslinger]

We can all argue what we would do as teachers in this type of scenario . We can all provide reasonable explanations as to why we chose to do things the way we did . The long and short of this whole issue is LIABILITY . The teacher in question and the facility that he's utilizing for this course are responsible for the safety of the class . PERIOD . It is ill advised to not err on the side of caution in these situations given the litigious society we live in . Most gun people realize that the best way to get new blood in this industry is to get more people involved . That being said , to the OP , did you know everyone in the class with you ? Are they all careful in firearms handling ? Do they have the years of firearms use and knowledge that you do ? Did the teacher know all of them ? Did they have his or her experience ? The people in that course ALL have to be treated the same . You see it as an affront to your skills and experience . But it's meant to make the class safer, and to make sure that if they DO have someone that isn't experienced with guns , that they'll be simply that , inexperienced. Not a threat to others because someone handed them a loaded gun , or they brought theirs in with little to no idea how to operate it . The other issue to consider is the VAST variety of handguns that are on the market today , and how considerably different they are in operation . That little lever at the back of the slide..it is a safety ? Is it a de-cocker ? Is it both ? A new gun owner may very well not know the difference . I've seen a gun with separate safety and de-cocker levers . If the new owner looks at it and says " Oh..the safety is on " He may well be more careless, even though the lever he looked at was a de-cocker.

 

[BB57]

Either you accept that the 2nd Amendment documents the natural right to keep and bear arms or you don't.

Let's be clear. This guy has the same second amendment rights that I do:

He needs a boat load of training before I'd want him carrying a concealed handgun in public:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgmMPth01jc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgmMPth01jc[/ame]

Just being born with a right, does not mean you are automatically ready to run out and exercise it. I don't see a reasonable amount of training as a barrier to exercising our 2A rights.

That's separate from the discussion of whether concealed carry falls under a more restrictive category than open carry when discussion the breadth of the 2A right to bear arms.

Most of us will agree that open carry is clearly covered, while most of us also probably agree that tactical nuclear weapons are probably beyond what our founding fathers intended. The rest is much more debatable, as is the issue of what if any training should be required for a concealed carry permit.

But the question here is simply whether an instructor should have the ability to run the class the way he wants to run the class.

Let's be clear - it's his business to run the way he wants. If you as a customer are unhappy with his business or how he runs it, you are free to find one more to your liking. It is after all a free country and that cuts both ways.

Personally, if I walked into a class with students having access to their own firearms and ammunition during the classroom session, I'd exercise my freedom of choice to walk out.

 

[upcountry]

In my opinion, it's the instructors rules, his shop, never mind NRA standards and common sense in a roomful of strangers.

We did a Pers Prot class once and as people came in and pulled up chairs--before the head instructor could even welcome them--a big guy sat down and a J frame dropped out of his pocket and landed on the floor. Instructor escorted him outside, made sure the gun was unloaded, told him to lock it in his car and that "maybe after you finish this class you might have learned something".

 

[rwsmith]

Learn first,....

....carry later.

I'm sure range time will be in there at some point.

 

[ken158]

A good chance the gun range has their insurance through the NRA who can dictate rules for their insured. I have shot at the NRA Headquarters range on many occasions and the same rules apply. Dealing with the lowest common denominator comes to mind in a scenario of this type. I taught LEO for many years and all classroom and range work was "cold" unless you were on the line.

 

[BB57]

And as a LEO, I have witnessed (and been victim of, luckily with no additional holes) many violations of muzzle discipline and handling of loaded/unloaded firearms with people in front of said guns.../

/... I find it much safer on a range with civilian gun owners than anywhere near fellow LEOs handling guns or qualifying at the range. YMMV

I agree with that and I think it comes down to two basic problems:

1) LEOs for the most part are not "gun people". For most it's just a tool they strap on and then qualify with 1 to 4 times a year, firing 50 or so rounds down range for each qualification, with maybe a similar amount in practice just before.

2) Way too many LEOs become complacent in their gun handling. Spend a few minutes searching you tube and you'll find numerous videos of LEOs either shooting themselves by violating one or more of the 4 basic gun safety rules or at least having a negligent discharge.

----

However civilians are all over the place when it comes to safe gun handling as well.

At one extreme, you have the practical pistol and bullseye shooters who have been well schooled on gun safety rules, range etiquette and in not letting muzzle and trigger control lapse, even under the excitement, time pressure and stress of a match. They know that if they violate basic safety rules they'll immediately be disqualified.

At the other extreme, you have the person who just bought a rifle or handgun the other day and is shooting it for the first time.

I am a member of a shooting club that has both a private and a public range. Most of the time I'm on the private range, it's just me or 1 or 2 "regulars" who I am pretty familiar with and who have demonstrated safe gun handling in the past.

At other times however, I may encounter a new member, or if the public side of the range is really busy, we may get some overflow. Those folks are a total unknown and all I know for sure is that they've received a 15 minute safety briefing.

Consequently, when I arrive on the range, I always set up as far to the right as possible. Why? Because 80% of shooters are right handed and when a new shooter shows up with a firearm, they are far more likely to sweep people to their left as they invariably bring the firearm across their body, pointing the firearm to the left.

When I see that kind of thing happen, I'll call the range cold and then go over and discreetly talk with the shooter. In most cases they are totally unaware they are doing it. I'll introduce them to the concept of keeping the firearm pointed down range from the time they pick it up to the time they put it down, moving their body around the firearm if they need to re-orient them selves to it.

If the person is a sailor it's easier as folks who drive sailboats understand that the sail remains in the same position relative to the wind while the boat is navigated by rotating the boat under the sail. Once you explain the firearm is just like a sail and needs to stay pointed in the same direction regardless of what the shooter is doing, the lightbulb goes on.

----

Now imagine trying to do that in a classroom with no safe direction to point a firearm with 10 or 12 students, some of whom are not currently paying attention to you.

 

[HeloMt]

I always remember the ink the for those safety rules was always someone's blood. The exercise of freedom can only rightfully be accomplished through responsibility.

 

[Rastoff]

It appears that many of you don't see the irrationality of this rule. In a class intended to certify people for a concealed carry license, the instructor is basically saying that even already licensed individuals are not to be trusted to carry a concealed firearm safely.

As has been stated, it's not about trust or carrying, it's about handling the gun in the class.

I had a student who came first for a CCW class then returned for a shotgun class. Of course he was carrying when he came in. I reiterated the "no live ammo" rule. Then I rethought the whole idea. I told him as long as it stays in the holster, he's good. You see, we were handling shotguns in that class. So, absolutely no reason to bring out the handgun. If he had, he would have been escorted out. He didn't and all was well.

The long and short of this whole issue is LIABILITY.

I disagree, but let me explain. As an instructor, liability is a concern, but not my first concern. My first concern, and responsibility, is the safety of my students. Liability is for after the injury is caused. Proper concern for safety will prevent the injury from ever happening.

A good chance the gun range has their insurance through the NRA who can dictate rules for their insured.

The NRA doesn't sell insurance. They only recommend insurance companies. Even so, the insurance company cannot dictate how the class is run. They can only spell out what they cover and what they don't. Sometimes this can look like they are dictating class procedure, but they really aren't.

Remember, there is no freedom from negligence. Regardless of what the students sign, the instructor/school can always be sued. If the instructor is found to be negligent, there can still be consequences, even with a waiver.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

The class obviously doesn't require a student to handle his gun since they are demanding guns to be left in the car. So what they're really saying is that they don't trust folks to keep their carry guns holstered during class.

Unfortunately, when some guys get around other gun owners they feel compelled to jerk their carry gun out of the holster and wave it around for show and tell. For that reason, it's not a bad policy. Much like some gun shops that have similar policies about loaded guns in the store. It helps keep carry guns where they belong, holstered.