Fire Dog
Member
I carry a J Frame. To put it simply just hit what you aim at! I don't need 17 rounds. If I need that many rounds, I need a shotgun or a semi-auto long gun.
Those that Carry a J...Ever Worry that 5 Isn't Enough?
- Thread starter Nalapombu
- Start date
You should always carry extra ammo in case you have a malfunction and have to reload the gun be it revolver or autoloader. The first rule of clearing a jam is always dump the ammo and reload with fresh/new. Nothing worse than a jam in a 5 or 6 shot handgun. Actually the two gun carry makes more sense, but other than very high stress area's is probably not going to happen. At 65 years of age my normal carry in my quiet hometown is a J Frame and one reload. When I go into a metro area I add either a 7 shot L-Frame or a Browning P35 or a 45 Commander depending on where I am going to be.
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No. Having worked in a technical field most of my life, I'm a bit of a statistician. Most armed confrontations are settled with one or two shots, sometimes zero. It is possible that I could need 15shots from a Glock 19 and an extra magazine, but not likely. Incidentally, my 5 shots are usually of the .44 Special variety. My J frame gets the job during warm months because it's easier to conceal.
Officerblue
Member
I live in Arizona now that summer is here I carry my j-frame more than my Alaskan. 5 shots to be more than enough for the average civilian American. If you're in the situation we you're facing a gang of marauders I would start caring a semi-automatic holding 19 + 4 clips! But if I lived in such a horrible neighborhood that I needed more than 5 rounds and strapped to the neck, I would just move to a safer and better location. 80% of all off-duty law enforcement officers carry a snub-nose off duty.
Cal44
Member
Another question to ask, is 5 rounds of what?
A snub loaded with 5 rounds of 125 gr. 357 magnum is "more" than a snub loaded with 5 rounds of standard pressure 38 special.
That assumes you can handle the high power load and aren't in a trade that requires you to be able to hear.
A snub loaded with 5 rounds of 125 gr. 357 magnum is "more" than a snub loaded with 5 rounds of standard pressure 38 special.
That assumes you can handle the high power load and aren't in a trade that requires you to be able to hear.
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Officerblue
Member
And on a lighter note, armed citizens are five times more likely to be shot... you can give a monkey a gun but without the proper training it's still just a monkey with a gun. Without proper training and extensive training armed citizen shouldn't pretend they're cops. I believe all private citizenship practice practice practice Because one day you will have to draw that gun and with the right practice and training you might actually walk out alive without taking any bystanders with you.
I'm not trying to be a liberal or tree hugger or anything like that, just a recent incident with the armed citizen trying to do what they thought was right. Almost got a couple good cops killed....
I'm not trying to be a liberal or tree hugger or anything like that, just a recent incident with the armed citizen trying to do what they thought was right. Almost got a couple good cops killed....
Officerblue
Member
Crime statistics FBI in Vegas 2008 at the Law Enforcement expo and National Crime Statistics and NewScience October 2009 and I'm sure there's a couple of sites that have that...
To be exact, They were 4.5 times more likely to be shot & 4.2 times more likely to die...
To be exact, They were 4.5 times more likely to be shot & 4.2 times more likely to die...
I now carry a S&W M&P 340 and a S&W 442-1 with two reloads.
All ammo carried is the Gold Dot 38 Special + P 135 grain. Load was developed for the NYPD. Very accurate in both of these revolvers.
I don't think I'm under gunned. I'm not an LEO or military. I'm not looking for trouble. Situational awareness is everything.
Wait for it... here comes the thread drift. Lucky gunner has had some great deals on the ammo.
Cheap Ammo For Sale | In Stock Ammunition For Sale
All ammo carried is the Gold Dot 38 Special + P 135 grain. Load was developed for the NYPD. Very accurate in both of these revolvers.
I don't think I'm under gunned. I'm not an LEO or military. I'm not looking for trouble. Situational awareness is everything.
Wait for it... here comes the thread drift. Lucky gunner has had some great deals on the ammo.
Cheap Ammo For Sale | In Stock Ammunition For Sale
Thugs seem to like to travel in packs of three.
My first choice would be a Maremont M60 machine gun. Just two old to carry it all the time. You can't beat the lightweight j frame for CCW.
Yiogo
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No, all set with my J frame. I live a J frame lifestyle. Great line!
But ya never know. Make your own decisions based on need.
There were 4 places I felt threatened.
(1) Niagara, NY. Potential threat (mugger) veered away when I turned around and looked at him.
(2) Baltimore, MD. Same as above.
(3) Paris, France...Metro mugger and girlfriend. Same as above.
For 1-3, I was with my wife but none of these situations were her fault.
(4) Montreal...Metro...Subway rats surrounded my wife looking for her pocketbook. They ran when I ran toward her. Actually, she went up to one of them to ask directions unbeknownst to me. We've had several long discussions about safe behavior when away from home. LOL.
Bless her heart. She is a beautiful trusting person with no danger radar.
In none of those places could I carry a J frame or anything else.
I really haven't had any close to home confrontations.
Lord willing I'd like to keep it that way.
Yiogo
But ya never know. Make your own decisions based on need.
There were 4 places I felt threatened.
(1) Niagara, NY. Potential threat (mugger) veered away when I turned around and looked at him.
(2) Baltimore, MD. Same as above.
(3) Paris, France...Metro mugger and girlfriend. Same as above.
For 1-3, I was with my wife but none of these situations were her fault.
(4) Montreal...Metro...Subway rats surrounded my wife looking for her pocketbook. They ran when I ran toward her. Actually, she went up to one of them to ask directions unbeknownst to me. We've had several long discussions about safe behavior when away from home. LOL.
Bless her heart. She is a beautiful trusting person with no danger radar.
In none of those places could I carry a J frame or anything else.
I really haven't had any close to home confrontations.
Lord willing I'd like to keep it that way.
Yiogo
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Do you have a link to this stat? I think your stats are way off. Did you do the numbers or someone else?
How Likely Are You to Die From Gun Violence? This Interesting Chart Puts It in Perspective | TheBlaze.com
But it's okay. When I get time I'll figure it out myself.
Best I could find is
police: 7.4 per 100,000
Group News Blog: How Dangerous is Being a Cop in the US?
Civilian 4 per 100,000
How Likely Are You to Die From Gun Violence? This Interesting Chart Puts It in Perspective | TheBlaze.com
Hmmmm
Forgive me but I am an engineer and live stats and hate when people spout them off to support their opinions without backing them up with data. I must politely say you are wrong based upon some quick research.
I also know crime stats are way under reported.
Americans 58 Times More Likely To Be Killed By Police Than Terrorists, Study : News : News Every Day
And the more I research. The more I think you have it backwards
http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml
More recent data. Sure I'll find more:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...he-myths-promoted-by-the-gun-control-lobby/2/
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99 44/100 % of the time, when I am going normal places, doing normal things and not looking for trouble? No.
As I posted elsewhere, following the Charleston shooting I decided to carry something of higher capacity and an extra magazine to church on Sunday. In that situation I am responsible for the safety of others and had a heightened awareness of my obligation.
If I were knowingly going into a high crime area or were working in a remote area late at night I might think otherwise. Most of the time I carry in order to have a way to get myself out of trouble.
There is always the danger that the local chapter of the Hell's Angels or an ISIS cell will decide to pick on me. To prepare for that...I pray. I know I'm not good enough to survive that scenario solo.
As I posted elsewhere, following the Charleston shooting I decided to carry something of higher capacity and an extra magazine to church on Sunday. In that situation I am responsible for the safety of others and had a heightened awareness of my obligation.
If I were knowingly going into a high crime area or were working in a remote area late at night I might think otherwise. Most of the time I carry in order to have a way to get myself out of trouble.
There is always the danger that the local chapter of the Hell's Angels or an ISIS cell will decide to pick on me. To prepare for that...I pray. I know I'm not good enough to survive that scenario solo.
For carry, I'm pretty comfortable with 5 based on the stats I'm aware of and considering the primary plan is always to avoid or escape since I'm not a cop. There is usually an opportunity to flee even once violence has commenced. Being pinned down where you need a high volume of fire is just not a likely scenario for a normal citizen. A lot of civilian self-defense encounters are sudden ambush style attacks and the snub really shines in these types of scenarios. Remember Zimmerman's gun jammed after the first shot which is a concern in ECQ attacks. If he had missed, who knows what may have happened or his gun could have been pushed out of battery and he could have not even get one shot off. It just depends on the specifics of the situation which no one can predict, but prepare and chose your weapons accordingly by looking at what is most likely to occur not what theoretically could which might just make you less capable to deal with what's most realistically a possibility.
Now for home defense, where a home invasion could occur in the middle of night and escape is a much less likely an option, I still prefer a handgun, but I wouldn't be really too comfortable with my only option being limited to 5 rounds. I often grab a snub for investigating a bump in the night and things like that, but if I'm sure there's someone breaking in, I would probably grab one of my Glocks although I still wouldn't feel horribly ill armed if a snub(or two) is all I had, but it's nice to have the option of higher capacity on hand nearby.
Now for home defense, where a home invasion could occur in the middle of night and escape is a much less likely an option, I still prefer a handgun, but I wouldn't be really too comfortable with my only option being limited to 5 rounds. I often grab a snub for investigating a bump in the night and things like that, but if I'm sure there's someone breaking in, I would probably grab one of my Glocks although I still wouldn't feel horribly ill armed if a snub(or two) is all I had, but it's nice to have the option of higher capacity on hand nearby.
In all honesty, the issue is not necessarily "5 shots" as it is how effectively can you run that gun. I am a professional trainer and been a very serious student of how to win gunfights my entire adult life. I guarantee I have far more training than a vast majority of both citizens and law enforcement folks. I have a hard time running a snub at a highly efficient level. Simply moving up to a K frame sized snub is a huge step in how efficiently I can run that system. With that said, I know several freaks of nature who can run a J frame like a service size gun. That really should be the goal for those who carry one as a primary. Personally, I do not live a J frame lifestyle and do not have the right avoidance mindset (I am getting there in retirement). My goal is to get to the point in life where I am perfectly happy with a .38 snub....I am just not there yet.
I would not disparage someone for the choice of a J frame snub as a self defense tool IF they are taking seriously the work that goes with that. On the other hand, for many people (which includes a large number of cops who should know better), the snub revolver is a talisman. Something like a trinket to ward off evil. They are hard guns to run well.....even at close range (where things are happening very fast, and very dynamic) they need some serious skills to hit with effectively.....and with only 5 rounds of .38, hitting effectively is going to be critical. Lots of dry practice and serious range work need to go along with that J frame lifestyle.
I would not disparage someone for the choice of a J frame snub as a self defense tool IF they are taking seriously the work that goes with that. On the other hand, for many people (which includes a large number of cops who should know better), the snub revolver is a talisman. Something like a trinket to ward off evil. They are hard guns to run well.....even at close range (where things are happening very fast, and very dynamic) they need some serious skills to hit with effectively.....and with only 5 rounds of .38, hitting effectively is going to be critical. Lots of dry practice and serious range work need to go along with that J frame lifestyle.
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ContinentalOp
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I carry a 642. I try my best to live the "J-frame lifestyle" mentioned earlier. I do my best to maintain awareness of my surroundings and have no problem walking (or running!) away from potentially bad situations. I feel adequately prepared should I need to defend myself. Hopefully I'll never find out.
I like snubs for a variety of reasons. Lightweight, compact, easily concealable, reasonable power level, etc. I like that they're immune to limp-wristing that could be cause by anything from having to fire at an awkward angle to injuries. I like that contact shots can be made if needed without having to worry about the slide being pushed out of battery.
Claude Werner did a study of 482 incidents recorded in American Rifleman's "Armed Citizen" column. The average number of shots fired by the defender was 2. If I remember correctly the average distance was just beyond arm's length. Defender's reloaded 3 times out of 482 incidents. Another study I read, based on NYPD shootings if I remember correctly, said that most of the time when officers did reload, which was also a small percentage, it didn't have an impact on the outcome of the gunfight.
A lot of the concern I've seen with capacity usually revolves around multiple attackers. A lot of the after-action reports I've read on non-LE self defense shootings and video footage I've seen show that with multiple attackers as soon as their target resists they can't get out of the area fast enough, often stumbling over each other. Have there been incidents where they continued the attack after meeting resistance? Yes, but those are very rare.
I spend most of my practice time focused on the most likely scenarios, but I will often try to incorporate outlier scenarios from time to time. It's impossible to practice for every possible scenario, but it's always good to have some flexibility and to have some contingency plans prepared.
I like snubs for a variety of reasons. Lightweight, compact, easily concealable, reasonable power level, etc. I like that they're immune to limp-wristing that could be cause by anything from having to fire at an awkward angle to injuries. I like that contact shots can be made if needed without having to worry about the slide being pushed out of battery.
Claude Werner did a study of 482 incidents recorded in American Rifleman's "Armed Citizen" column. The average number of shots fired by the defender was 2. If I remember correctly the average distance was just beyond arm's length. Defender's reloaded 3 times out of 482 incidents. Another study I read, based on NYPD shootings if I remember correctly, said that most of the time when officers did reload, which was also a small percentage, it didn't have an impact on the outcome of the gunfight.
A lot of the concern I've seen with capacity usually revolves around multiple attackers. A lot of the after-action reports I've read on non-LE self defense shootings and video footage I've seen show that with multiple attackers as soon as their target resists they can't get out of the area fast enough, often stumbling over each other. Have there been incidents where they continued the attack after meeting resistance? Yes, but those are very rare.
I spend most of my practice time focused on the most likely scenarios, but I will often try to incorporate outlier scenarios from time to time. It's impossible to practice for every possible scenario, but it's always good to have some flexibility and to have some contingency plans prepared.
kthom
Member
I forgot to mention earlier, there was another fellow who once felt well prepared with five rounds. You can read about him in the Book of I Samuel, Chapter 17. If you read the story, pay close attention to verse 40. Prior to going out to meet the giant Goliath, the young man David chose for himself five smooth stones from the brook in preparation for his confrontation with the giant.
Now he didn't seem to feel the need for more than five stones, or else I suspect he'd have gathered up more. I doubt seriously if there were only five smooth stones in that brook. Now this is a bit tongue in cheek, but if you are familiar with the story, this young man David had already tangled with a lion and a bear that tried to steal some of the sheep David was taking care of. The lion and the bear paid with their lives at the hand of this young man.
David seemed to be confident in his abilities with his slingshot. He faced the giant and brought him to earth with ONE of those smooth stones. The giant, on the other hand, had a spear, a sword, and a javelin, which were no match for the stone that struck him in the forehead, no doubt a small target in order to avoid striking the helmet that likely covered most of his head and the suit of armor he was wearing. So David didn't just hit the giant with the stone. He hit him in exactly the place where the stone would do the most good. Let the record show that David ran over to the giant and took the giant's sword and cut off his head. Did the stone kill the giant, or did the sword kill him? Who can say for sure? I will say this that we can know ... if the stone had not done it's job, the sword would not have been available to finish the job or make sure of it. The record states that David had no sword in his own hand. And the record also tells us that apparently David needed no reload after he fired the first stone. I figure I can send a second round down range with my five shot revolver more quickly than David could have reloaded his slingshot from his shepherd bag. Then again, I'd rather not find out the hard way. I expect he was also well practiced with his reloading.
Believe the Bible story or not, this story points out that a determined and confident man who has faith in his weaponry and his ability to use it properly and effectively and who is also fighting for what is right is a formidable adversary. I, for one, believe this story and take it at face value. Certainly not all who fight for the right survive alive, but that's not the point here. A man must be firmly committed to the task at hand and have taken steps to be fully prepared to meet whatever eventuality may present itself. The suit of armor offered to David would have been a big hindrance to him, but his own familiar equipment allowed him to prevail.
Five smooth stones. One in the chamber and four in reserve. David apparently felt he was well prepared and ready. Apparently he was. I believe this story is food for thought. Thanks for listening ...
Now he didn't seem to feel the need for more than five stones, or else I suspect he'd have gathered up more. I doubt seriously if there were only five smooth stones in that brook. Now this is a bit tongue in cheek, but if you are familiar with the story, this young man David had already tangled with a lion and a bear that tried to steal some of the sheep David was taking care of. The lion and the bear paid with their lives at the hand of this young man.
David seemed to be confident in his abilities with his slingshot. He faced the giant and brought him to earth with ONE of those smooth stones. The giant, on the other hand, had a spear, a sword, and a javelin, which were no match for the stone that struck him in the forehead, no doubt a small target in order to avoid striking the helmet that likely covered most of his head and the suit of armor he was wearing. So David didn't just hit the giant with the stone. He hit him in exactly the place where the stone would do the most good. Let the record show that David ran over to the giant and took the giant's sword and cut off his head. Did the stone kill the giant, or did the sword kill him? Who can say for sure? I will say this that we can know ... if the stone had not done it's job, the sword would not have been available to finish the job or make sure of it. The record states that David had no sword in his own hand. And the record also tells us that apparently David needed no reload after he fired the first stone. I figure I can send a second round down range with my five shot revolver more quickly than David could have reloaded his slingshot from his shepherd bag. Then again, I'd rather not find out the hard way. I expect he was also well practiced with his reloading.
Believe the Bible story or not, this story points out that a determined and confident man who has faith in his weaponry and his ability to use it properly and effectively and who is also fighting for what is right is a formidable adversary. I, for one, believe this story and take it at face value. Certainly not all who fight for the right survive alive, but that's not the point here. A man must be firmly committed to the task at hand and have taken steps to be fully prepared to meet whatever eventuality may present itself. The suit of armor offered to David would have been a big hindrance to him, but his own familiar equipment allowed him to prevail.
Five smooth stones. One in the chamber and four in reserve. David apparently felt he was well prepared and ready. Apparently he was. I believe this story is food for thought. Thanks for listening ...
If you can hit people in the face at distance with your snub everytime and in variable scenarios, then like David......you'll be fine. If you haven't trained, can't hit effectively, and simply have "faith" , you will likely end up like Goliath's previous opponents.
rock_castle
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I don't worry one bit. I also carry a speed strip.
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It's not how many rounds you have, but how many will hit the mark....
We had two County sheriff deputy's stop a car that the US marshal's
though may have a wanted felon.
Only 3/4 of a mile from my house.
They stopped the car, the BG was disguised with a woman's wig and dress.
He opened fire as the LEO's got out of there car's.
He hit both of them twice, they both emptied the Glock 40 S&W of 12 rounds and never hit him.
One is back to work after 18 month's. The other is still not back at work.
The BG car jacked and went 20 miles north and when confronted by multiple LEO's, shot himself...
And yes, I CC a J frame in warmer weather.
But like a 1911 when wearing a jacket in cooler weather...
Don't feel under gunned with either.
We had two County sheriff deputy's stop a car that the US marshal's
though may have a wanted felon.
Only 3/4 of a mile from my house.
They stopped the car, the BG was disguised with a woman's wig and dress.
He opened fire as the LEO's got out of there car's.
He hit both of them twice, they both emptied the Glock 40 S&W of 12 rounds and never hit him.
One is back to work after 18 month's. The other is still not back at work.
The BG car jacked and went 20 miles north and when confronted by multiple LEO's, shot himself...
And yes, I CC a J frame in warmer weather.
But like a 1911 when wearing a jacket in cooler weather...
Don't feel under gunned with either.
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