Old manuals

[alwslate]

Regarding the Speer #8 the only data that I personally found to truely
be excessive was with 4756 as mentioned above. With the current
manuals unfortunately there is much confusion regarding one of the
most popular and most reloaded handgun rounds, the old 38 spl.
A mild old round with a 17,000 psi limit but also a +P version with a
20,000 psi limit. And it seems much confusion on the part of
handloaders about that scary word MAXIMUM! As pointed out by some
well known gunwriters most data in manuals stays at least 10%
below pressure limits but some handloaders seem to nearly panic at
the idea of approaching the highest charge weight listed which may
in fact barely excede 15,000 psi. And plus P? In manuals that list
pressure in is common to see top charges for +P at 17,100 psi. It's
no wonder the poor handloader seeking advise ends up fearful after
he is trounced throughly for daring to approach MAXIMUM in his
38 spl loads.

 

[Cleveland48]

I had the hornady 7th edition I believe and it was my go to for reloading rifles because I mainly use hornady bullets in my rifles, but I let my brother have it. Been using the Lyman for 44 mag a couple years now but I keep in pretty well downloaded with hardcast mostly unique around 1000 fps. This will be my first venture into reloading 38 special. Wanting some +p defensive loads for it but the majority will be plinking loads. Just want to get a load that shoots to the sights all the light bullet factory loads shoot low but not enough to worry me for a center mass self defense distance. Windage is pretty spot on regardless of bullet weight just need to find a sweet spot for the up/down.

 

[WR Moore]

In reality, I suspect most of those loads in the old books are perfectly safe IF done correctly. It's when a scale is misread by a full grain or a double charge is thrown that the new recommendations give you a bit more breathing room.

Not necessarily. Back when the 125 gr JHP bullet for .38/.357 was the big new thing, I picked up a Hercules Data Book fresh off the presses. When I sat down at the bench, I was boggled to see that the max load with a certain powder was at the same level as one of my pet .44 Magnum loads. After a few minutes with a calculator, I knocked that load down at least 10% and loaded up 5-10 of them.

They produced excellent accuracy and expansion from a 6 inch Model 28. They also had a muzzle flash you could see in bright sun light and cratered primers, possibly also pierced a few-memory isn't what it used to be.

I was back in the LGS within 2 weeks and, lo and behold, there was a revised HDB out with a direction to discard the previous edition and much lower max loads for that powder. I still have both-somewhere.

There was also a note in one of the Hornaday manuals noting the reduction in maximum charge for 200 gr bullets in .45 ACP. They stated it was NOT a misprint. They noted that with the new piezo-electric pressure gauges, they discovered excessive pressures that didn't show up with the copper crusher.

 

[Alk8944]

......I picked up a Hercules Data Book fresh off the presses. When I sat down at the bench, I was boggled to see that the max load with a certain powder was at the same level as one of my pet .44 Magnum loads. After a few minutes with a calculator,......

Not questioning you at all, but I have never seen what was an obviously anomalous load listing in the Hercules/Alliant handout. It may be that I just have never looked at the right powder/bullet/cartridge combination! What year was that handout? I have these going back quite a while and am curious if I have it and just missed something! A PM would be just fine if you don't want to post for general consumption, and I can see why you may not want to.

You are absolutely correct in the part of your post I cropped out however. Speer #8 and the 125 gr/4756 loads are an exellent example! There is simply no way that 12.0/4756 can be "Done right" to make it safe in a .38 Spl. revolver. FWIW the IMR handout placed maximum at something like 4.5 grains for 15,000 PSI or so. Close enough for the example, I will gladly post exact numbers from IMR if anyone wants to question this!

 

[WR Moore]

ALK8944-PM enroute.

About the concept that there's room at the top in load data.................

There's absolute maximum pressure. Then there's the maximum average pressure (MAP) that lots of loaded ammo should not exceed. You'll find factory ammo loaded to MAP, which is lower than the absolute maximum pressure. It's rather unclear in documents I could access which pressure level is published.

In either case, exploring above the published data is hazardous to your health.

 

[Nemo288]

They noted that with the new piezo-electric pressure gauges, they discovered excessive pressures that didn't show up with the copper crusher.

Bingo!
You made the point I was so laboring to establish in my long-winded (some would say blowhard) style.

Makes one wonder what the ACTUAL peak pressures were in all those cordite rounds being assembled in
England and shot in Africa and India; a subject I like to read about.
I know they had trouble with some and backed off those loads.
Sound familiar?
This business has been going on since the first guy blew himself up with a "gonne".
Early ballistic feedback was brutal.