Official Police contact- What do you say?

[GCF]

Why do so many guys say this like it's a fact? PLENTY of "bad guys" have CCW licenses! Why? So they don't get arrested for a felony if a cop catches them with an unlawfully carried firearm! There are LOTS of "bad guys" out there who do not have a criminal history that would preclude them from getting a CCW license.

I suppose if it were possible to look into a guy's soul - to see if he was really a good guy, or a bad guy (bad thoughts maybe?), we could take firearm ownership restrictions to the next level.

In lieu of that, I think it's relatively safe to say, that most guys who are "really bad" enough for society to restrict their God given right of self defense, are going to have criminal records.

And the inevitable few "closet bad guys", who have been smart enough (into adulthood) to refrain from the type of behavior that tags them w/ a criminal history, I suppose will just continue their errant ways - laughing at the rest of us. At least until The Thought Police, figure a way to get the goods on them...

Sorry to say, but I must stand by my original statement. I am not in law enforcement (you may be) - & certainly do not speak for those in that community, but from what I have been able to tell during roadside "interviews", most working LEO's - at least in these parts, view CCW licensees as relative "good guys".

I was pulled over on the highway a couple of weeks ago - for an equipment violation (no front license plate / my fault - no doubt about it), by a very professional Sherriff's Deputy, in a K9 unit. That stretch of rural blacktop is a corridor for well armed smugglers, & he was monitoring traffic heading north, looking for bad guys - obviously w/ laser focus. Just him, & his partner Rin Tintin.

After the formalities, the subject got around to my status as a Texas CCW licensee. He asked (sincerely I might add) why I wasn't packing. He might have been trying to trip me up, but I don't think so. Told him I was on the way to one of my customer's place of business (a bank) to service some equipment, & didn't want to make anyone nervous.

He issued me (no surprise) a written warning - for the missing plate. Just before he turned to walk back to his unit, he wished me a safe trip, & believe it - or not, said "Thank you for being a Texas CCW license holder".

Oh yeah, you can bet the flippin' license plate is fixed, too...

 

[keith44spl]

Why do so many guys say this like it's a fact? PLENTY of "bad guys" have CCW licenses! Why? So they don't get arrested for a felony if a cop catches them with an unlawfully carried firearm! There are LOTS of "bad guys" out there who do not have a criminal history that would preclude them from getting a CCW license.

I did not know this fact.....Got any numbers?

Like is it less than 25% or greater than?

Somebody's got to do something about this problem....


.

 

[sgtsandman]

Generally speaking, those who go through the trouble of getting a carry license (and yet another background check) are the most law abiding of the lot. They don't want to do anything to lose their license, let along their ability to own firearms. Some, like myself, get other licenses (and go through even more background checks) so they can carry in more States.

Is there bad apples? Sure there are. Just like in anything. There are bad police. Bad lawyers. Bad doctors. The list can go on.

There is a reason people here are making the statements they are concerning how police treat and view licensed carriers. Unless we are talking about certain areas of the country, of course. I would not want to travel through New Jersey, for instance...

 

[Rastoff]

Generally speaking, those who go through the trouble of getting a carry license (and yet another background check) are the most law abiding of the lot.

A lot of guys will disagree with me, but this is one reason I think disclosing is valuable. Knowing that you have a carry license should put the officer at ease. No criminal will even try to get a license.

 

[RSanch111]

Knowing that you have a carry license should put the officer at ease.

Never put me at ease. Why should it exactly? Because some scumbag who doesn't have a felony conviction or misdemeanor that would prohibit him from getting a permit would never try to get one? That kind of reasoning will get you killed. Guess what? Not every scumbag 1%er has been convicted of anything! And guess who's going to carry all the guns on the road trip? Either the women in the van or the guy with the permit. I've seen it. I've run plates on the bikes lined up on up day in front of the club house and a LOT of them come back to guys with CPL permits.

And on top of that, as far as a CPL being a "good guy indicator", we probably send 5-10 referrals per month back to the gun board on permit holders who have screwed up. Most often in road rage incidents.

Why on earth would any reasonable cop think that just because a guy has a cpl permit, he's a good guy? That's like assuming that because you have a driver license, you're a competent driver.

Generally speaking, those who go through the trouble of getting a carry license (and yet another background check) are the most law abiding of the lot.

Would you suggest a police officer train for "generally speaking" or to be ready for the anomaly as well? Everyone got treated the same by me on traffic stops and other contacts. "Deadly until reasonable to believe otherwise." And having a cpl permit with the "qualifications" needed to obtain one, never amounted to "reasonable to believe otherwise" with what I knew.

In lieu of that, I think it's relatively safe to say, that most guys who are "really bad" enough for society to restrict their God given right of self defense, are going to have criminal records.

I never trained for "relatively" or "generally". I trained to put two in the chest and one in the head of benign older gentlemen like this, if necessary, on duty AND off. Anyone can be ready for the guy with the "bad guy sign".

Detroit Road Rage Killer Sentenced:
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...iver-guilty-murder-road-rage-howell/27320897/

 

[BigBill]

I borrowed my son's van to go out of state atv riding. I didn't know he had a headline out. Coming home at night on the mass border a mass state cop stops me.

I handed him my ccw permit in the dark. By accident.
He asks me if I had guns in the van. Said no why?
He asked me why I had a ccw permit.
I told him I pumped gas at night in a bad area.
I gave him my drivers license.
He asked me if I been drinking. No I'm a diabetic.
He notices the atv has a mass plate on it.

He was nice the whole time. But we were alone and he never called for back up. I'm a nice guy but what if.

I was stopped in my '57 Chevy. I had a 350/350hp cam in a 327. The state cop said I could go his sargent liked the sound of my engine. A Leo gear head that's awesome.

 

[GCF]

I never trained for "relatively" or "generally". I trained to put two in the chest and one in the head of benign older gentlemen like this, if necessary, on duty AND off. Anyone can be ready for the guy with the "bad guy sign".

Detroit Road Rage Killer Sentenced:
Driver guilty of murder in Howell road rage incident

Not having access to all the facts, we can only hope that the jury reached a correct verdict. Sometimes they don't.

I will say, that it "appears" the deceased was running a quart low, & may have been the one exhibiting the symptoms of "road rage" - approaching another driver (who had reportedly been driving erratically) at a stop light. Was he an off duty LEO? If not, & even if he was - assuming out of uniform, the correct course of action, would be to back off, remain non-confrontational, contact LE - via cell phone, & monitor until marked units arrived.

It is conceivable, that a "benign older gentleman", 70 years of age, could well have felt his life in jeopardy, possibly blocked in by traffic, w/ a wild eyed, obviously aggressive male - half his age, beating on the driver side window of his vehicle.

20 +/- years ago, when Texas first enacted concealed carry, there were a number of police chiefs that went on record in opposition, forecasting a return to the wild west - w/ blood & gore knee deep in the streets. A few even said up front, that anyone armed - stopped for what ever reason, CCW or not, would be treated like common criminals.

In the years since, the armed CITIZENS of our state have proven them selves, & most of the concealed carry detractors in uniform, have either changed their previous opinion - realizing that THEY too are citizens, like THE REST OF US, or gone on to pursue other endeavors.

Although you have not stated so directly, you infer strongly that you are commissioned LE. Directly speaking, is that the case?

Whatever the case, please be advised that the vast majority of us, many who are "benign older gentlemen", strongly support our members of the LE community. We always have, & always will, as long as LE remembers who they work for, & CONTINUES to support the rights of their fellow free citizens.

"Free citizens", as opposed to "subjects" being the key here.

 

[sgtsandman]

Never put me at ease. Why should it exactly? Because some scumbag who doesn't have a felony conviction or misdemeanor that would prohibit him from getting a permit would never try to get one? That kind of reasoning will get you killed. Guess what? Not every scumbag 1%er has been convicted of anything! And guess who's going to carry all the guns on the road trip? Either the women in the van or the guy with the permit. I've seen it. I've run plates on the bikes lined up on up day in front of the club house and a LOT of them come back to guys with CPL permits.

And on top of that, as far as a CPL being a "good guy indicator", we probably send 5-10 referrals per month back to the gun board on permit holders who have screwed up. Most often in road rage incidents.

Why on earth would any reasonable cop think that just because a guy has a cpl permit, he's a good guy? That's like assuming that because you have a driver license, you're a competent driver.



Would you suggest a police officer train for "generally speaking" or to be ready for the anomaly as well? Everyone got treated the same by me on traffic stops and other contacts. "Deadly until reasonable to believe otherwise." And having a cpl permit with the "qualifications" needed to obtain one, never amounted to "reasonable to believe otherwise" with what I knew.



I never trained for "relatively" or "generally". I trained to put two in the chest and one in the head of benign older gentlemen like this, if necessary, on duty AND off. Anyone can be ready for the guy with the "bad guy sign".

Detroit Road Rage Killer Sentenced:
Driver guilty of murder in Howell road rage incident

I understand that you, like anyone else wants to go home at night in one piece and you are never really sure who you are dealing with. From what you have been stating on here though, sounds like everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Any scrap of evidence to help prove otherwise is irrelevant. If you work in a rough neighborhood, I can see where one would driven to be like that. That being said, I hope I never get pulled over by you. It sounds like I would get read the Riot Act for a burnt out tail light.

 

[Rastoff]

So, RSanch111, you'd rather not know that someone in the car has a gun? Hmmm, interesting stance. Assuming you're a policeman (you haven't said as much), you're the first to tell me that.

Further, no, I don't expect a policeman to let out a sigh and say, "Oh thank God. You have a license to carry. We're all safer now." My thought was just that it's one possible indicator that the owner is not a felon, that's all.

 

[moose1953us]

I find this question interesting . . . must be a TV cop thing. I have never asked anyone "do you know why I stopped you?" In all my 20+ years I don't recall ever hearing any other officer asking that question either.

By law in Arkansas the salutation should go more like this;

"I am Deputy Faulkner with the sheriff's office and the reason I stopped you is . . . . "

in NJ you get asked that all the time. along with where are you going, why are you in this area etc. I've even gotten stopped and the officer wouldn't tell me why, saying never mind that it's none of your business....

 

[Varangi]

I'd like to stir the pot some-

The top 3 killers of LEO's in the US are: Traffic Accidents, Domestic Calls and Traffic Stops.
I for one have never been swayed by my "Stat-Happy" bosses daily or nightly frowns when I failed to turn in my "10 Parkers & 2 Movers" at shift's end. What I did provide was Felony Arrest Stats. I used the California Vehicle Code as a tool to gather "Reasonable Articulate Facts" to develop "Probable Cause" to arrest people.
If one of my bad guys was driving a vehicle w/out a gas cap, I thought it my duty to advise him of that unsafe condition. We all knew the game, his or her job was to stay out of my handcuffs. If they did their job well that encounter, off they went with a wave and a smile. If not, off to jail.
Every once in a while, Joe Citizen would get caught in the net. I had a "catch and release" policy for strays but it was not foolproof. Every once in a while, Joe would violate the one rule that was not in his best interest interest to violate- "Contempt of Cop". Sounds like a few on this thread have had similar experiences.
My rules of survival during a traffic stop:

1. There is always a gun present at the stop- Mine!!
2. My Officer's Safety trumps your sense of righteous indignation until my business is concluded.
3. I will prevail in any and all conflicts- After I have prevailed, I will pick you up, dust you off, explain my actions, apologize if warranted and continue my investigation.

and lastly, The Golden Rule:

I will end my shift with the same amount of holes in my body as I started that shift.

Please remember- Cops are human and prone to the same stressors as real people-but have deadly force at their fingertips. My advise: Always err on the side of caution.

Rant on!!

Mike

 

[RSanch111]

The top 3 killers of LEO's in the US are: Traffic Accidents, Domestic Calls and Traffic Stops.

More likely it's heart disease, high blood pressure and suicide.

 

[RSanch111]

So, RSanch111, you'd rather not know that someone in the car has a gun? Hmmm, interesting stance. Assuming you're a policeman (you haven't said as much), you're the first to tell me that.

What I'm saying (after 30 years as a policeman) is that it doesn't MATTER if a gun carrier tells me he has a gun or not, because I treat everyone I encounter as though they may be armed, whether they tell me or not. And as I've said before, "shall inform" laws are not for the cops' safety, they're for the safety of the gun carrier who in the absence of informing reaches for his driver license or registration that may be in close proximity to a firearm on a traffic stop.

I stopped a jakey-looking gangster in a lowrider once and he informed me he had a gun on him. I went back to my car, wrote him his ticket for "follow too closely" and gave it to him. He said: "You're supposed to ask to see my CPL!" Really?

 

[RSanch111]

I will say, that it "appears" the deceased was running a quart low,

Impossible. They screen for that in the CPL application process.

 

[RSanch111]

I understand that you, like anyone else wants to go home at night in one piece and you are never really sure who you are dealing with. From what you have been stating on here though, sounds like everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Any scrap of evidence to help prove otherwise is irrelevant. If you work in a rough neighborhood, I can see where one would driven to be like that. That being said, I hope I never get pulled over by you. It sounds like I would get read the Riot Act for a burnt out tail light.

My job isn't to decide whether you or anyone else are "guilty". That's for a judge or jury. My job is to determine if there is probable cause to arrest you or reasonable suspicion to detain and/or search you. I don't assume anything. I don't assume that the clean-cut polite white guy has my best interests in mind and I don't assume that the 1%er biker is going to try to kill me. If I develop reasonable suspicion on either one of them, they get investigated. Zero assumptions, rather reasonable inferences based on the circumstances. Just because someone is very polite does not mean they're not trying to manipulate you. Ask any corrections officer.

Are you going to MF the police after you just did an armed robbery and are stopped for a traffic violation? Or are you going to be "yes sir, no sir"?

As far as me and traffic stops, if I stopped you for a tail light out, and I had no reason to search you or your car, I'd likely let you go without a ticket. If I stopped you for a tail light and you had a cheesy traffic warrant for an unpaid ticket, or a suspended license, I would arrest you, search you and your car and if I didn't find anything, I'd unarrest you and let you go right there at the scene, maybe with a ticket, maybe not. Why would I let you go? Because I don't want that $50.00 warrant to be cancelled in the computer, because it gives the NEXT cop who stops you probable cause to arrest you and search you AGAIN. And maybe that time you or your friends in the car will have your gun or dope in the car.

Younger cop may arrest you for a easy arrest and a monthly stat. Older cops think a few more moves ahead.

 

[DEG]

It's a felony to bring a firearm onto a military installation ...

I'm pretty sure this is not true even though many installations have placed signs at the gates stating such and referencing 18 U.S.C, Part 1, Chapter 44, Section 930.

For decades I transported shotguns and other firearms on and off base while a member of Scott's Rod & Gun Club. I even had several random inspections at the gate with firearms in the vehicle. A few years ago they closed the gun club for financial reasons and all of a sudden signs popped up at the gates stating it was illegal to carry firearms on the installation and the reference the exact US code I cited above.

The specific US code they are citing prohibits firearms inside federal facilities and very specifically defines facility as "a building or part thereof". I've been able to find no federal law that makes it a crime to possess a firearm while driving down the road through a military base and it really can't exist. Some bases, such as Tyndall, have US highways running right through the middle of the base.

 

[LenS]

As Rsanch111 states, complacency can kill an officer. Treating everyone alike is not a negative thing . . . it means to be on alert and not complacent during every encounter.

Officers typically in my area do NOT want you to disclose (not required by law, MDTs in many areas will tell the officer wrt firearms licenses here). But every officer is/should be alert to furtive movements, and if you ccw properly nobody should ever see a gun if you reach for a DL or registration!!

 

[jtd]

I was stopped yesterday. put wallet,insurance and keys on dash. hands on wheel and when he approached,i smilled and said guilty. said I was going 82 and I said" ever bit of".I told him I had a hand gun in door pocket(MO does not have to declare) he retrieved it checked permit and ran numbers to see if it was stolen,smiled and said to" go on" because of my honesty and attitude(mabe my age -getting closer to 70)
Im sure I gave a few smiles to those I had passed to see me all lit up

 

[Bahamaroot]

In Kentucky your CCDW license is attached to your DMV records so a cop knows your licensed as soon as he runs your plate. The last time I was stopped I knew I was speeding. The officer approached my truck, asked for my license and insurance card. I handed him both. He asked me how fast I was going and I told him exactly how fast, without fudging the truth, knowing full well I was admitting guilt. He asked me if I was armed and I said yes sir, knowing he already knew I was licensed to carry. He handed me back my license and insurance card and said,"Your the first person that hasn't lied to me today, slow down and have a good day."
Sometimes it pays to be polite and honest. Most of the time that is all there looking for. Had I lied to him I was sure to be ticketed.

 

[RSanch111]

I was stopped yesterday. put wallet,insurance and keys on dash. hands on wheel and when he approached,i smilled and said guilty. said I was going 82 and I said" ever bit of".I told him I had a hand gun in door pocket(MO does not have to declare) he retrieved it checked permit and ran numbers to see if it was stolen,smiled and said to" go on" because of my honesty and attitude(mabe my age -getting closer to 70)
Im sure I gave a few smiles to those I had passed to see me all lit up

To each his own I guess, but I'd never do that. You were stopped for traffic, had a permit, told the guy you had a gun on you and he took it to run the numbers with no reason to believe it was stolen. "Just becasue"? I used to run plates all the time "just because" but to take a permit holder's gun on a traffic stop and run the numbers when everything else is straight is more than I'd do. If the guy was an outlaw biker? Maybe....But a slightly past middle-aged guy without any other indicators of "bad guy", and with a permit with no reason to believe the gun stolen? I doubt it.