K Frame Masterpiece Revolvers Won't Fit in the Box??

[Walter Rego]

Speedo2, is there a visible serial number on the bottom of the blue box with the paste on label showing Target Stocks ? I seem to recall blue boxes started to appear in 1955 ?
If that is the case, that is the type of box that my Target Stocked K-38 would have shipped to Evaluators in in May of 1955. Thanks for sharing that photo.

 

[iskra]

OK, just thinking 'outside the box'... Sorry! I couldn't resist!

I've just skimmed this Thread, so pardon if I'm regurgitating someone's theory. But might it be possible that "N" frame sized boxes were used. It would seem simple for Smith to order a batch with different nomenclature printed on them or even just generic with end labels. That would seem the Occam's razor solution!
Just my take

Addendum: Just to add a pix of an "N" frame gold box. Note the greater height as assessed by the longer end fasteners. Would seem to be ready made for the thicker grip situation and I would assume, the same more ample dimensions in height & width too. since we're not talking about 'government', Occam's razor just might be viable!

 

[glowe]

. . . But might it be possible that "N" frame sized boxes were used. . .

That may be correct for the later style box, but since the target stocks became available in late 1949, that era gun would have only had the gold Masterpiece box available, so now I will be hunting for those 5 tab gold boxes.

I have a 1951 box with the same style box label that was used to transition the standard gold box so it could be used with the heavy barrel version. That gun did not come with target stocks, so it simply states target hammer.

 

[RKmesa]

Several years ago (or maybe more than several), I purchased a K-38 Heavy Masterpiece with Target Hammer an Target Stocks from a friend at a local gun show. It came to me in a blue box (no printing on the outside of the box) with an end label attached to the lid. The box lid measures 5" x 15" x 2" and comfortably fits the gun with the stocks on it. There are no grease pencil marks on the bottom, or if they were there, they have long since been rubbed off, so I cannot confirm that this is the box that the gun originally shipped in, but the configuration on the gun matches the configuration stated on the end label.

Here's some quick iPhone photos:



Box Top:





Printing on inside of Lid:





Printing on inside of Bottom (Note the 1955 date):



The SN on the gun is K140802 which would indicate a 1952 ship date, BUT the box has the 1955 date on it, so this has always been a mystery to me. Perhaps this is a gun which was shipped much later (sometime after 4/15/1955) when the target grips, target hammer and the box were in production??? The other possibility is that sometime after 4/15/55, this gun went back to the factory for a target stock and target hammer retrofit, then was shipped back to the owner in an unmarked, but labeled box (fyi, there are no factory rework marks on the gun)...

 

[iskra]

Well, all interesting. Still, Mr. Jink's remark sticks and pointedly appears to fit with Occam's remark too! In those half century ago pre 'connected-era' days, such as product design, production control, sales and shipping; they weren't just a coordination-click' away! Firms adapted; made-do!

In the gold box era, perhaps just some big labels pasted over the original nomenclature on an "N" frame box. We do know absolutely that Smith did make good use of modifying/amplifying labels. Beyond complex theory, that's the sort of thing people and firms did to get the job done. Well, that's my new 'pet theory' until I'm shown up!

And... In any case, all very interesting here! With the absolute convenience of file photos, I'd whizzed through my own short list of relevant "N" boxed Smiths. I'm going to have another look this evening at "K" boxes, but there a very short list!

Yet all in the hallowed name of 'research'! Sometimes just with the assist of a decent glass of red... Strictly for that sort of research too of course!

And putting a 'wrap' on these invaluable insights...
Just my take

 

[glowe]

Another scenario is that if no one every comes up with a gold Masterpiece box big enough to fit a target stocked gun, it could indicate that the introduction of the target stocks did not occur until the advent of the blue box?? That would put the earliest date for target stocks at around 1954 instead of 1949/1950.

Richard, I have always assumed that the solid unmarked boxes were only used to return repaired guns to the customer, but one never knows. Maybe as noted previously, the early target stocked guns did not have a gold Masterpiece box that fit tham and all were sent in a plain N frame sized blue box with a Masterpiece label added??

The list of possibilities is endless.

 

[rck281]

I have seen an engraved 6 1/2" pre-M27 with target stocks that was shipped in an 8 3/8" gold box. I currently own a 4" Pre-M24 (1955) with target stocks that was shipped in a maroon box for a 6 1/2" gun. I have never seen an oversize gold box. I have owned two Pre-M24's 6 1/2" guns with target stocks that were in oversized maroon boxes. Ray Brazille sold a P24 pinto in an oversize maroon box around 3 years ago.

 

[45Wheelgun]

OK - I have this, which is the correct gun, box and grips. The gun shipped 3/55. The gun doesn't fit in the box with the grips on. Clearly it must have shipped with the grips not attached.

 

[Walter Rego]

45Wheelgun, that adds more evidence that around the 1955 time frame, if a K-38 (or K-22) was ordered with Target Stocks, they slapped the pre-printed label indicating Target Stocks on any box available and if it didn't fit, they simply removed the stocks. Provided the box was tall enough anyway..... Have you tried to remove the stocks on your gun and place it and the stocks in the box ? It's also interesting that the factory still had some maroon boxes around approximately 8 years after we start to see Gold Picture Boxes appear.

 

[JP@AK]

This has been an extremely interesting thread. Thanks to all who have contributed so far.

 

[YeshuaIsa53]

I clarified with Roy. They used whatever box was available that would fit.


Thank you very much Roy, but were these "Gold Boxes" or just an of the shelf generic box to fit the early target stocked Masterpieces?
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Dick, they were gold boxes, but they might use one for a larger frame gun if they did not have them on had at the time they need the box and then use an end label or cross out the other gun information. But they also had some gold boxes with out gun labels on them. Roy
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Hmmmm. K-38 with target diamond grips/stocks....I'm on the assembly line(in my dreams), so I grab an N frame gold box with no label on it yet and let it fly out the door. Maybe I place a label on it. THAT gold box is the one I want to see: N frame box with K frame label.

 

[glowe]

If you look through the box section in Supica/Nahas SWCA3, you find several box types that overlapped following WWII. Red picture boxes were made until 1954, black/blue 2 piece boxes were made starting in 1946, and gold boxes from 1946 to 1965.

There was a blue sunray box introduced before the introduction of model numbers in 1954. Finally, the top labeled S&W famous blue box was introduced in 1957 to introduce the new model numbered guns.\

Several choices in the late 1940s through the mid 1950s, but so far no large gold boxes. As far as I know, all gold boxes were embossed with the designated gun on the lid, so there could be no way the factory would have put a K frame target gun in a clearly marked N frame model box, so those other boxes that have been shown above would have been a logical solution if the company always shipped with stocks installed.

I will let everyone know if I ever find a 5 tab high gold K frame box.

 

[45Wheelgun]

Have you tried to remove the stocks on your gun and place it and the stocks in the box ? It's also interesting that the factory still had some maroon boxes around approximately 8 years after we start to see Gold Picture Boxes appear.

The gun and grips (off the gun) fit in the box with the grips in the space above the barrel. The box will close completely in this configuration. The gun will not fit into the bottom piece of the box with the grips on it, even without attempting to put the box top in place.

 

[Walter Rego]

Thank you 45Wheelgun, that's interesting information. And as others have commented, this has been a very informative thread.

 

[iskra]

Excuse another "outside the box" qualifier here, but this time more seriously referencing a box situation which may be misinterpreted due to "collector oriented perceptions". Not trying to play psychologist here. But please bear with me a moment.

We collectors realistically place great value on our Smith boxes. That almost certainly different and materially so over a half century ago and especially for 'working guns' as opposed to those occasionally intended to be socks drawers queens. Boxes were much more often throwaways! That almost a universal 'given' in earlier eras and why we now place significant premiums on them.

If a Smith arrived in proper new condition, a box that didn't quite fit and perhaps was (oh horror) even taped together... irrelevant in terms of concern in those days. Especially non-fitting boxes even more unlikely to survive and that especially when superficially damaged as by tape! Whether holsters or gun rugs, the majority of Smiths, Colts, and the like kept in those, not within retained boxes!

Well, not to belabor the point further. Just to advance the theory that what might seem totally unacceptable to a collector or many purchasers today, was of little notice or concern about mere 'shipping details' in those days of yore!

Just my theory and...
My take.

 

[glowe]

. . . If a Smith arrived in proper new condition, a box that didn't quite fit and perhaps was (oh horror) even taped together... irrelevant in terms of concern in those days . . .

Apparently, you have not tried to stuff a target stocked Masterpiece in a standard gold box? There is no way tape would have worked to keep the box secure. The gun with targets is too high, too wide, and too long to fit. You would have to rip out the corners and that would not be acceptable to the S&W factory.

S&W spent a lot of money in design and construction of the gold box, something we all know would have not been easy to do from such frugal company. Early boxes were, as you state, a means to deliver the contents to the buyer in one piece. By the mid-Twentieth century, boxes started to become part of the marketing image of the company. Post-war trips to hardware stores you would have seen firearms advertising that was all about eye appeal, and the boxes even turned into advertising. The gold box was meant to present the image of valuable contents and catch the eye of the buyer. I think it would have been very unlikely that S&W or any company would rip out the corners and tape up the box to present their product in such a way to the buyer.

 

[BigBill]

Noticed this when I picked up a set of brand new S&W larger stocks for my k22. The box don't fit.