Early Hand Ejector Target Sight Tutorial

[Igiveup]

What an education! The rear sight on mine is slightly different, the front sight is a somewhat notched bead, sn is 2359xx. A six inch barrel, what model would I have? Also, roll stamp on top of barrel has patent dates, .38 spl.

 

[Chukar60]

Thanks to all who contributed. The forum aided me in purchasing a 5" early 4 screw target ( shipped 1906). this forum has been very helpful with information. The amount of quality information generously shared here is invaluable.

 

[handejector]

Lee, et.al.

Do you think that someone in the past got frustrated with the "opposing screw" program and returned this 2nd Model for a postwar sight installation?

There is "865" stamped on the frame under the grips.

Thanks!

Hard to say unless you have a letter on the gun.
By that, I mean that it might not have even been a Target when shipped.
Maybe somebody sent a 44 Military in and had sights put on. Things like that could still get done in the 60s.
If it was an early Target and had the easily broken sight, maybe someone wanted the newer system after breaking it.
I'm not Claire Voyant, but I think I met her in a juke joint in the 70s.

 

[rct269]

Lee, et.al.

Do you think that someone in the past got frustrated with the "opposing screw" program and returned this 2nd Model for a postwar sight installation?

There is "865" stamped on the frame under the grips.

Thanks!

That obscenely high front sight put me in mind of one of those Illegal Immigrant Models, but you said "2nd Model"; so this is a .44 HE 2nd---an 'N' frame----right? That being the case, I like your guess just fine---although it may or may not have been a target model to begin with (A letter will tell that tale.). I'm assuming the sight tang is of the grooved variety---not smooth, and not blended into the top strap----yes?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

What an education! The rear sight on mine is slightly different, the front sight is a somewhat notched bead, sn is 2359xx. A six inch barrel, what model would I have? Also, roll stamp on top of barrel has patent dates, .38 spl.

Going strictly by the serial number, you have an M&P Target, circa "19 early/mid teens", thereabouts, with the "large screw spring up" rear sight----an odd wad where the sight rises via spring pressure (The tang is bent/curved, and tempered---as a spring.). (All previous and subsequent sights are moved (up/down) via a jack screw.) This was a bad idea that came into being around 1911, and stayed around until they used up their supply of sights----1923. It is readily identified by the rear screw---a cap screw through the sight and into the top strap. And, as you may have surmised, it has a "large" head (comparatively speaking)-----diameter approximately 5/32". The bad idea part was they found they couldn't/didn't control the heat treating of the tang properly, and ended up with varying degrees of spring power. Very strong is best because it won't shoot loose easily. Very weak is worst because the sight won't rise enough to be usable at longer ranges. The good news is target models were few and far between during this period (about 2% of total), so you have a rather rare gun.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Igiveup]

Thank you, rct269. Upon closer examination with a magnifying glass this morning, I noticed that the front sight says Lyman, a replacement I presume. Last patent date on top of barrel is Sept. 14, '09.

 

[BlackAgnes]

Ralph---

Here's a shot of the topstrap...

 

[rct269]

Thank you, rct269. Upon closer examination with a magnifying glass this morning, I noticed that the front sight says Lyman, a replacement I presume. Last patent date on top of barrel is Sept. 14, '09.

The Lyman front may or may not be a replacement----probably is. I say probably is because my data says "This sight was applied to break-open revolvers on order from 1895 to 1920.". So, on the one hand, we have a sight ostensibly applicable to break-opens; but on the other hand we have an HE revolver made (and likely shipped) before 1920----and "S&W would do anything anybody would pay them to do." (That quote from Jinks.) The bottom line is S&W would put virtually any front sight available in the marketplace on any of their (target) guns. A letter MAY answer this question----directly or indirectly. Specifically, a letter may tell you the gun was a special order (only), or it may tell you it was a special order---and exactly why it was a special order. If the letter was mute vis-a-vis special order and/or front sight, you can (reasonably) safely assume the sight is a replacement. Some folks get their knickers in a knot over replacement anything. Others, with an appreciation of what goes on in the real world, have come to expect replacement items----grips come first, followed shorty thereafter by sights, followed by action jobs (with or without altered hammer spurs)----and the beat goes on.

Your patent date is the same as one of mine (with this sight) and different from another (with this sight)---offering some insight as to why I seldom pay much attention to patent dates. (#238778 carries the Sept. 14, 09 date----#264678 carries a last date of Dec. 29, 14.) Feel free to fret about such things. I'm going to get some breakfast.

Ralph Tremaine

Another thing I seldom pay much attention to is this 1st/2nd/3rd/4th change business-----which strikes me as a concoction of collectors to justify buying more guns----an entirely reasonable approach. That said, #238778 is a 3rd change gun----#264678 a 4th change; which (very likely) may explain the different patent dates on my two examples.

One thing's for sure-------------the patent dates have absolutely nothing to do with the sights. There is no record/mention of this sight in the factory records. Jinks explains that thus: "This is not a surprise as many of what the foreman considered as minor changes is not recorded." It's perhaps worthy of note that what S&W referred to as "the foreman", we would refer to as the Plant Manager----as in Big Kahuna.

 

[Skeetr57]

Re: Barrel patent dates on target guns. The Dec29 '24 patent date refers to the hammer block safety, and target guns didn't get that safety until around the mid '20s as I recall. However it has been stated that the barrels of the pre war target guns were standard barrels that were taken from stock and milled for the target front sight, so a target gun may have the patent date for the hammer safety but never actually had such a safety. I have one prewar .38 target in that configuration.

 

[rct269]

Ralph---

Here's a shot of the topstrap...

Okay---I thought I had this all figured out. I didn't----still don't.

I certainly knew putting a (rear) target sight (either pre or post war) on a standard gun involved a trip to the milling machine. I SUPPOSED putting a post war sight on a pre-war target gun also involved a trip to the milling machine, but figured most of the work had already been done. So I looked at two N frame target guns---one pre, one post. Then I grabbed a machinist rule I keep handy----and got edumacated!

Both tangs are the same width. Both notches at the rear of the top-strap APPEAR to be the same. The retaining screw on the post war gun has a larger diameter head on it----but APPEARS to be in the same location. At this point, I begin to think swapping pre and post war sights was job for a screwdriver---and a hacksaw because the post-war sight tang needs to be shortened----and I don't know if I'm right or wrong. In my blissful ignorance, I suspect the depth of the groove in the pre-war top-strap perhaps needs to be deeper to accommodate the post-war sight tang.

Bottom Line: A complete answer requires removing the sights from both guns, sitting and staring, some fiddling to see what fits where, and perhaps a bit more measuring.

Your move. Say if you'd like to see if I can change these sights with a screwdriver. (And if anybody out there already knows the answer to this question, speak up.)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[CptCurl]

Lee,

Thanks so much for sharing this information with us. Very helpful.

Good question.
I had planned to put a "tech tutorial" on the old sights, but might as well go into it here.

I clamp the barrel in a set of leather vise jaws in a rather high vise. Clamp the gun more or less LEVEL and PLUMB(frame vertical). This allows one to have the screwdriver "square" with the screw just by eyeballing it.

I wear a 5X magnifyer visor.

I have a set of Craftsman jeweler's screwdrivers that I bought at Sears years ago. They are the best set I have ever seen. The shanks are the longest I have seen. They are ground VERY well. The handles, while still rather thin, are plastic, and are longer and thicker than any I have seen. They are not really large enough for a palm grip, but they allow the fingers of both hands a purchase. They have a rotating cap. While pressing the cap with an index finger, I use the thumbs and fingers of both hands to grip. They are not hollow ground, but have served me well.
Generally speaking, hollow ground gunsmithing screwdrivers are not small enough. They can, of course, be ground or filed small enough to work. However, BEAR in MIND that too much torque on these tiny screws is likely to wring it off or pop half the head off.

If the screws don't turn readily, STOP. They varnish up over the years, and get stuck. Squirt a good PENETRATING oil that is BLUE SAFE on them, and walk away. PATIENCE. If angry, frustrated, etc, on any given day, WALK AWAY. NOT a job for a preoccupied man.
Soak them as long as necessary. If one day doesn't do it, keep squirting oil for two or three days. Sometimes they move, then bind again. MORE oil and patience. It may have taken 100 years for them to get THAT stuck- don't expect to cure it in the first minute.
never had one beat me yet.

The above quote is the best advice of all. We are just like kids and tend to have no patience. I followed this advice over the past two days. This morning the tiny jack screw turns!

 

[gmborkovic]

Rear sight

Lee, For 40 years I have had a rear sight in an oil soaked envelope.
1. .250 wide
2. 2.75 LOA
3. two screws fwd of blade and small hole way at front
4. #3077 stamped on under
5. bright blue, metal smooth
Any help?