Sanity Check

[MAJPATT]

Gentlemen,

I've decided to get into the reloading game. I've been conducting research for the past month including pricing equipment and components, reviewing load data, and building a shopping list. I've also done a lot of reading on various reloading forums. I would like to share with you my needs and shopping list and hope that the experienced people can give me a sanity check.

Here are the parameters:

1. Not going for high volume. I'm not a "gamer" or a benchrest type competitor. I like to shoot some obscure stuff and like the idea of tailoring my loads to specific needs.

2. Not going for cost savings. I quickly realized that given the high cost of entry, it is going to take a long time to see any cost savings. That is ok. I've decided to buy nice stuff that I hope will last.

3. I shoot a lot of 9mm, 5.56, and 7.62X39. I don't plan on reloading for any of them. I'll save the brass, but right now loaded ammo is cheap enough that I'm not going to put in the time for blasting fodder. Can get into that game latter as the need arises or time increases.

4. I do not have the time nor the desire to make this hobby a full time job. I will not be loading thousands of rounds a month, turning case necks, using micrometer to gauge every case, and I won't be trying 10 different powders at 10 different weights.

5. Here is what I would like to load:

a. .44 Special, target level loads to feed vintage guns like a triple-lock.

b. .44 Magnum, midlevel loads for fun at the range, but with some pop; 240 grains at 11-1200 fps.

c. .38 Special and .45 acp target loads. .45 loads will both be for autos and revolvers.

d. .223 target loads will primarily be used in a bolt but could be used in an AR.

e. .308 and .30-06 will be used in a M-1A and M1 Garand. 30-06 for use in a Springfield 03-A4 sniper rifle.

f. .348 Winchester and .45-70 Gov't to feed my Winchesters.

g. Subsonic .300 Blackout for use with a suppressor in a SBR AR.

h. At some point would like to do small runs of .300 H&H, .300 Weatherby, 6.5X55, 7x57, 30-40 Krag.

So, given those parameters, I set to work on equipment research. Here is what I have determined for my full set up.

- Forster Co-Ax press (progressive is not for me)
- Forster Original Case Trimmer (I like that this will work with .348 Win and .45-70)
- Forster chamfer and deburing tool
- Redding powder scale, measure, and trickler
- RCBS Ultrasonic
- Caldwell Chronograph
- Redding Carbide Dies for pistol
- RCBS AR series Dies for .223, .308, .30-06
- Undecided on Dies for .348 Win and .45-70
- Imperial wax
- Lee universal Deprime die (then into the ultrasonic)
- Missouri Bullet Company Hi-Tek for .38, .44, .45, .300 BLK, .45-70.
- Lyman and Hornady Manual
- Already have a nice sturdy bench in a basement room

So, let me know if you have any suggestions on my equipment choices or if I'm missing something. Please no responses that say "start with a Lee loader" or "get a Dillion super machine" or "find a old Hollywood press at an estate sale."

Between the cost of all of this junk, plus the primers and the powder, perhaps this whole reloading idea is a bad idea. Am I crazy here?

Edit to add: I haven't purchased anything yet, except for some powder and primers. I have a few days left on my "birthday" price break at Midway, so feel free to make suggested changes!

 

[robertrwalsh]

Not crazy. You will not only save money (though not a ton of money) but you will get EXACTLY what you want rather than simply what is available. In addition many people (including me) find reloading to be relaxing or even therapeutic. You will amortize the expense in a year or two, maybe less. Go for it.

 

[garbler]

Looks like you have done your homework and put together a package very well suited for some selective quality loading. You will be very pleased with a Forster CoAx press and its unique floating shell holder and the minimal runout on loaded cartridges. I could kick myself for letting mine go as it even out performed my Hollywood Seniors on bottleneck brass. Everything else is good quality proven tools.

Good luck

Let me just add the Forster trimmer with accessories is one fine set up and performs as well on every level as my older Wilson trimmer.

 

[Geronimo Jim]

You don't want to prime on the Co-Ax press.
Would suggest the RCBS hand primer.
Co-Ax is GREAT press.

 

[Nevada Ed]

You do need to read up on the best type of powders to use for the M1 rifle. Some can damage the recoil rod from too high of pressures.
There are Ball and stick powders that were made for this rifle and I have found that IMR 4895 with a starting load of 46 grains with the M2 Ball or a 150gr FMJ bullet makes for a nice low recoil target load. This load will also work in the 1903 bolt action rifle and start out around 2,500 fps.
Milt. spec's are around 2,805 MV at 49,000 CUP for war time ammo.

IMR-3031 to IMR-4064 work in the M1 & M14 in the fast to slowest powders.
Some say IMR-4320 is safe but I like a little extra safety on pressures.
2550 fps with a 168gr in the M14 is a guide........... sure you can load faster but this load will also be safe in 90 degree temperatures !! Same goes for the old M1 rifle. Treat it nice and you will not need a lot of parts or trips to a gunsmith.
Keep it clean and check the gas port every now and then and you should be fine.

 

[JBnTx]

...Between the cost of all of this junk, plus the primers and the powder, perhaps this whole reloading idea is a bad idea. Am I crazy here?

Getting into reloading is a good idea, but don't over think it and make it so complicated that you can't see the forest for the trees.

Keep it simple at first, then move on to more detailed reloading as you become comfortable.

 

[venomballistics]

Looking at the cartridge list .... you should also think about casting and coating equipment too.

44, I found that after going to coatings, the Lee 214 SWC finally redeemed itself and really found a place. a 240 might be a classic, but I tend to favor lighter pills at higher speeds.
45 auto, it has a ravenous appetite like any other auto but nearly requires a second mortgage to keep fed without casting.
45-70 ... Mine has seen about 10 factory rounds ... the rest has been all cast handloads like God intended.

 

[MAJPATT]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have thought about priming on the co-ax press. It seems like a very slow, but precise method. Watched a great video demonstration on YouTube. I may have to add a hand primer to the list.

I'm tracking that m1-a and m1 garand require specific loads. I already orded some IMR 4064. Will continue to research before I pull the handle.

I purchased some Winchester primers and various powder (Ramshot zip, universal clays, aa 5744, and the 4064. I know I will need more to cover everything I want to do, but it is a start. I considered VV powder, but did not like that there was not as much data out there as with other powders.

I'm not ready to jump into casting yet. I have spent a lot of time on the cast "boolit" forum the past month though.

 

[bwxmas]

I am going to go against the grain.
What you have is fine, but In my opinion, a Redding T7 would be far more beneficial to a new reloader. Much more versatile
Just an opinion.

 

[blujax01]

Look at it this way, you have chosen some good equipment to start with and if for some reason, you decide that you no longer want to pursue reloading, it will be really easy to sell the stuff in the S&W classifieds for 75-80% of what you paid.

Save the boxes and papers. For some reason, we love boxes and papers.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

Looks like a good selection. You will want to get something to check case lengths, an inexpensive digital caliper will do fine. Also loading blocks are handy and don't have to cost much. Those hard plastic trays that come with some brands of 45 acp work great in a pinch and will hold most rimless rifle cases except for the magnums.
I'll also second the RCBS hand primer tool.

John

 

[Twoboxer]

OP: Best and most disciplined outline of wants and needs plus the connecting logic I've seen. I suspect you will do quite well as a reloader

Re your list . . . I may have found some different landing points than you did, but your choices are solid.

Normally I'd advise against Ultrasonic cleaning . . . batch sizes are small, you have to dry the brass, the additives add expense, you need to "be there" reasonably soon after the batch is complete. However, it may work well for your multi-caliber small batch reloading and it does avoid the dust from dry tumbling. I dry tumble outdoors, dumping at least one caliber of brass in when returning from the range, and relying on a timer to turn it off. If I don't come back for a week, the brass remains unharmed. OTOH, if you ultimately find ultrasonic brass cleaning unsatisfactory, you will probably find the device useful for other things.

If you decide to hand prime, I'd suggest the RCBS Universal Hand Primer. It does not use any shellholders, which means yours can stay with the many die sets you will have. Ergonomically the Hornady was marginally better for me, and the Lee trays turned primers a bit faster. But unlike those the RCBS-U has an excellent safety slide to separate primer supply from the primer being seated, and has never flipped a primer upside down after the cover was in place.

My hands get more sensitive each year, so I have switched to the RCBS Bench primer and a Hornady 1911 primer tube filler and find my arthritic hands appreciating the change.

A bit on chronos. Nothing wrong with your brand choice, but optical chronos have pros and cons. More weight to carry, the range must be cold for you to set up 10 yards down range, the range must be hot to check rifle alignment, the weather and lighting must cooperate, and you and/or a friend will ultimately shoot the chrono at least once . When shooting from a bench, they often need to be re-adjusted if you set up many targets (sometimes 100 yards) down range.

The MagnetoSpeed magnetic chrono needs to be attached to the barrel or rail of your firearms. When attached to the barrel it will most often change your POI, but there is no evidence it affects group size. It's small, no tripod, sets up when the range is hot, does not need light or specific weather of any kind, and is damn difficult to shoot If you haven't looked at them, might be worthwhile.

(I have a Labradar on order. It might be the best chrono form, but I can't yet comment on whether it is practical or worth the expense.)

 

[growr]

Having reloaded many thousands of rounds for the M1 Garand and M1A for many years in NRA High Power matches, the earlier post of specific burn rate powders is sage advice, IMR 4895 is recommended because it works SO well and was originally designed for those cartridges.

There are other powders....but the standard for me and many others is still 4895.

I might also strongly recommend the use of a case gauge( Wilson, Dillon etc) for each caliber.

They are invaluable in setting up your dies... and pay a lot of attention to the case length and use dies that size the casing to fit the chamber properly while setting the shoulder back to the correct spot for head spacing. This is a VERY important element

I have used RCBS ( not small base), and now use Dillons and Redding successfully.

Welcome to the wacky world of reloading!!!!

Randy

 

[MAJPATT]

More great comments. Thanks guys.

I permanently borrowed a Brown and Sharpe dial caliper from my father. Will be using that one for now. I did consider a Redding press instead of the Forster. As you can see, the majority of the other stuff on my list is Redding. I like their reputation for quality and superior design. I also listened to a podcast interview with their VP, and I was impressed with their business practices.

My thought process was that with the Co-Ax, die changes are just as fast as a turret, and I don't have to buy extra turret heads or shell holders. In fairness, to load .348 Win and .45-70 in the Co-Ax, I will need to buy the extra "LS" shell holder plate.

BWXMAS, if you have any more detail you want to add on the T7 please fire away. I have not made my final decision yet...my birthday price break at Midway is good for a few more days.

 

[jag22]

As a happy Co-Ax owner I would agree with most of your choices, I might differ on a few but thats just personal choice. At first I thought you weren't going for perfection on every round but using a powder trickler and a chronograph makes me think otherwise. If you're just going to the range for some fun shooting don't know that you need those. Could have misunderstood your intent. As someone else mentioned you need a set of calipers, guessing you knew that, just forgot to list it. My only addition would be the Lee reloading manual, it has a lot more info than the ones you mentioned. Also, if you have a drill press loading blocks are easy to make your self. Have fun.

 

[Rule3]

SANITY CHECK? HERE????

Glad to see you have done your research,

A few tips, Baby steps, you have a lot of calibers and equipment listed. start with easy straight wall cases like 45 ACP or the 44 Mag, 44 Special

Get the hang of doing one easy caliber before going nuts and buying everything,

I would also buy the Speer manual and the LYMAN CAST BULLET if shooting lead bullets.
The LEE manual has data that was complied years OK from other sources they never tested anything.

There is also lots of different powders and primers you will need for those calibers.

You need a caliper, loading blocks, as you are single stage loading.

Why the Caldwell Chrono? It has not been out very long,(does not seem to fit with your higher end list)

The Comp Electronics is a great unit , no it does not have a read out separate from the unit but it can be seen 10 feet away.

You can get a extra that hooks up to a laptop.It works 100% in intense Sunlight, If you do kill it, they will fix/replace for 1/2 price.

Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph

 

[MAJPATT]

OP: Best and most disciplined outline of wants and needs plus the connecting logic I've seen. I suspect you will do quite well as a reloader

Re your list . . . I may have found some different landing points than you did, but your choices are solid.

Normally I'd advise against Ultrasonic cleaning . . . batch sizes are small, you have to dry the brass, the additives add expense, you need to "be there" reasonably soon after the batch is complete. However, it may work well for your multi-caliber small batch reloading and it does avoid the dust from dry tumbling. I dry tumble outdoors, dumping at least one caliber of brass in when returning from the range, and relying on a timer to turn it off. If I don't come back for a week, the brass remains unharmed. OTOH, if you ultimately find ultrasonic brass cleaning unsatisfactory, you will probably find the device useful for other things.

If you decide to hand prime, I'd suggest the RCBS Universal Hand Primer. It does not use any shellholders, which means yours can stay with the many die sets you will have. Ergonomically the Hornady was marginally better for me, and the Lee trays turned primers a bit faster. But unlike those the RCBS-U has an excellent safety slide to separate primer supply from the primer being seated, and has never flipped a primer upside down after the cover was in place.

My hands get more sensitive each year, so I have switched to the RCBS Bench primer and a Hornady 1911 primer tube filler and find my arthritic hands appreciating the change.

A bit on chronos. Nothing wrong with your brand choice, but optical chronos have pros and cons. More weight to carry, the range must be cold for you to set up 10 yards down range, the range must be hot to check rifle alignment, the weather and lighting must cooperate, and you and/or a friend will ultimately shoot the chrono at least once . When shooting from a bench, they often need to be re-adjusted if you set up many targets (sometimes 100 yards) down range.

The MagnetoSpeed magnetic chrono needs to be attached to the barrel or rail of your firearms. When attached to the barrel it will most often change your POI, but there is no evidence it affects group size. It's small, no tripod, sets up when the range is hot, does not need light or specific weather of any kind, and is damn difficult to shoot If you haven't looked at them, might be worthwhile.

(I have a Labradar on order. It might be the best chrono form, but I can't yet comment on whether it is practical or worth the expense.)

Great feedback. I think the RCBS primer is the one. Some mitigating information on chronos. I have the privilege of living in Utah. Open desert shooting is only 45 minutes away, so some of the downside in set up isn't a worry. I looked at the magnetospeed. Sure seems like a neat piece of gear. I was honestly just trying to do the chrono on the cheap. Do you ever use the magnetospeed at indoor ranges?

 

[MAJPATT]

As a happy Co-Ax owner I would agree with most of your choices, I might differ on a few but thats just personal choice. At first I thought you weren't going for perfection on every round but using a powder trickler and a chronograph makes me think otherwise. If you're just going to the range for some fun shooting don't know that you need those. Could have misunderstood your intent. As someone else mentioned you need a set of calipers, guessing you knew that, just forgot to list it. My only addition would be the Lee reloading manual, it has a lot more info than the ones you mentioned. Also, if you have a drill press loading blocks are easy to make your self. Have fun.

JAG22, thanks for the information. As far as the chrono, I do feel the need to verify what I'm doing with data. Seem like a cheap investment for peace of mind.

Based on your handle, you and me are in the same business. Certainly you can appreciate my reluctance at taking things on faith.

 

[Magload]

OP: Best and most disciplined outline of wants and needs plus the connecting logic I've seen. I suspect you will do quite well as a reloader

Re your list . . . I may have found some different landing points than you did, but your choices are solid.

Normally I'd advise against Ultrasonic cleaning . . . batch sizes are small, you have to dry the brass, the additives add expense, you need to "be there" reasonably soon after the batch is complete. However, it may work well for your multi-caliber small batch reloading and it does avoid the dust from dry tumbling. I dry tumble outdoors, dumping at least one caliber of brass in when returning from the range, and relying on a timer to turn it off. If I don't come back for a week, the brass remains unharmed. OTOH, if you ultimately find ultrasonic brass cleaning unsatisfactory, you will probably find the device useful for other things.

If you decide to hand prime, I'd suggest the RCBS Universal Hand Primer. It does not use any shellholders, which means yours can stay with the many die sets you will have. Ergonomically the Hornady was marginally better for me, and the Lee trays turned primers a bit faster. But unlike those the RCBS-U has an excellent safety slide to separate primer supply from the primer being seated, and has never flipped a primer upside down after the cover was in place.

My hands get more sensitive each year, so I have switched to the RCBS Bench primer and a Hornady 1911 primer tube filler and find my arthritic hands appreciating the change.

A bit on chronos. Nothing wrong with your brand choice, but optical chronos have pros and cons. More weight to carry, the range must be cold for you to set up 10 yards down range, the range must be hot to check rifle alignment, the weather and lighting must cooperate, and you and/or a friend will ultimately shoot the chrono at least once . When shooting from a bench, they often need to be re-adjusted if you set up many targets (sometimes 100 yards) down range.

The MagnetoSpeed magnetic chrono needs to be attached to the barrel or rail of your firearms. When attached to the barrel it will most often change your POI, but there is no evidence it affects group size. It's small, no tripod, sets up when the range is hot, does not need light or specific weather of any kind, and is damn difficult to shoot If you haven't looked at them, might be worthwhile.

(I have a Labradar on order. It might be the best chrono form, but I can't yet comment on whether it is practical or worth the expense.)

I shot over the MagnetoSpeed last week it was so much easier to use then my Pro Chrono but unless you get the V3 it takes a optional cable to get the data to a cell phone app then mail it to your PC. The V3 model has a SD Card plus you can get a mount to use on a pistol that has a lower pic rail. Don

 

[bwxmas]

More great comments. Thanks guys.

I permanently borrowed a Brown and Sharpe dial caliper from my father. Will be using that one for now. I did consider a Redding press instead of the Forster. As you can see, the majority of the other stuff on my list is Redding. I like their reputation for quality and superior design. I also listened to a podcast interview with their VP, and I was impressed with their business practices.

My thought process was that with the Co-Ax, die changes are just as fast as a turret, and I don't have to buy extra turret heads or shell holders. In fairness, to load .348 Win and .45-70 in the Co-Ax, I will need to buy the extra "LS" shell holder plate.

BWXMAS, if you have any more detail you want to add on the T7 please fire away. I have not made my final decision yet...my birthday price brake at Midway is good for a few more days.

Here goes,
Everything you stated makes me believe you want to load good accurate ammo. That is fine, But for a new reloader, I personally do not like the Coax. I work on feel, and have used a standard pull from my press for 40 yrs, and I am not changing now.
Anytime some recommends hand priming, that's a red flag for me. If you don't have enough feel with your hands, with a standard press, than somethings wrong. It is an unneeded step, one in which I won't spend the time. I can guarantee there are few, if anybody on this forum more anal than me, at accurate loading.
If I thought the Coax was better, I would have it.
I do not think the Coax would be any more accurate than what I build on my T7. If it is, in your case it would be minimal.
I do not change heads. I have 7 holes, which i can set up 2 complete calibers, while only changing a shellholder. I can also choose to use one hole as a powder dispenser if I choose. I use the lock rings on these dies. All the dies that I use for the T7 are set up for the T7.
If I need to change calibers, I tighten the rings, just unscrew the dies, and screw the new ones in(already set up), change the shellholder, and rip. Takes a minute maybe. They only need to be set once, lock the rings, and bingo, done. Similar to what a lock, and load would be without the bushings. I can decap, prime, expand,seat, and crimp, with just the movement of the head, with exacting tolerance. I can go as slow, or as fast as I want.
Many will disagree, and I have never had a forster that did not do what is was supposed to, But I looked into the Coax 20yrs ago, I did not like it then, and I still don't. It will not load more accurate ammo than Redding.
It will always come down to the guy setting it up.

The t7 is 86 lbs delivered, if that tells you how stout it is.
I can afford any press I want, but I use the Hornady, and Dillon for progressive, but I use the T7 for my most accurate rifle loads.
I shoot to 500yds, and have had no problems with accuracy.

Sorry for the long version, but you have a great list, and it will work fine, but for a NEW reloader, I think the T7 would be a far better deal.