Interesting letter from D.B. Wesson to Ed McGivern

[beetledude]

Hi Folks.

I've shared the story of my pair of Triple Locks from the Elmer Keith auction earlier this year. In case you missed it the thread can be found here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...424808-my-first-triple-lock-elmer-keiths.html

It took awhile to get the S&W factory letter so that I could ask the SWHF to see if they had any records on the guns. Boy did they ever! Some super interesting stuff between D.B. Wesson and Ed McGivern (owner of the gun before he traded it to Elmer Keith).

The gun in question (the one on the right):

So the cover letter from SWHF states "We researched your .44 Hand Ejector First Model, serial #6146, in our digitized and indexed records for the period 1927-1941, to determine if this revolver was associated with the famous shooter, Ed McGivern. Our search located five documents that show your revolver was once owned by Mr. McGivern."

The first document is a pretty basic letter from McGivern to Mr. Roper at Smith and Wesson requesting new sights, as well as a complete cylinder and crane so that he could interchange 44-40 on the gun.

<- click on image for full sized scan

Then there is a letter from D.B. Wesson back to McGivern (not shown) that basically states "it was lucky that your letter came to my attention otherwise you would have gotten a cold, generic response". My guess is that prior to this letter McGivern did not yet have a relationship with Wesson (which is why he sends his first letter to Mr Roper).

The third letter is where it gets interesting. In a response to a bunch of letters from McGivern, Wesson shares his thoughts on a number of topics. The letters are kind of hard to read so I will post a transcript below.

Mr Ed McGivern
Box 1778
Lewistown, Montana

Dear Ed McGivern:

I have just returned from three weeks in North Carolina feeling on top of the wave and find your letters awaiting me. I trust by this time that you have received the 38/44 and find it functioning satisfactorily. I have an idea that in attempting to get all possible speed of operation with this particular revolver the stop spring may have been lightened a little too much, and I do know that there is no one around here with a trigger finger like your's – incidentally I have learned something from this that is valuable, and merely goes to show that the fast functioning, that is, way beyond what we consider to be fast, requires no changes in adjustment of our lockwork, but only reasonable care in fitting. I am also very interested in finding out how the additional weight of this cylinder will affect the stop and stop notch, it may be possible that the hammering at that point is going to be very severe. Please keep your eye on the notch and see if it tends to upset.

I will grant you that the grip will punish when fired a considerable number of rounds on the 38, and also on the 44, but we are really extremely loathe to change it, and I will admit that ti is more on account of appearance than for any practical reason; the sense of the matter is that the appearance of the revolver is its best "trade mark", and there is really a lot of sentiment connected with its outline, so as there is only one owner out of a thousand that shoots enough to bang himself, and those few who do have individual ideas as to what would be the most satisfactory design by keeping our design and letting individuals make such changes so suits himself. Mark you, I don't say for a minute that that's the proper or clever thing to do, for it is the shooter who knows what he is talking about, and we admit the truth of his statement, but I do really believe that it is the expedient thing to do, and I hope you get our position.

On the question of matting the top of the frame and back of the rear sight, there is no question to the correctness of this, but again sentiment comes into that to quite an extent as Colt beat us to it, and while I could be very glad to do it for anyone, I don't want to be accused of copying them, even though they did grab onto our square cut sights with no semblance of forced modesty; again I think you can see my feeling.

You may be sure that I am extremely interested at all times in getting suggestions from people who know, and if we don't or can't follow them out, it is not from lack of interest, but either, as I have already said, for a matter of sentiment or for manufacturing reasons.

I note what you have to say about plastic wood and am very much interested for I have been working out the possibilities of this plastic wood with the idea of getting out a little leaflet telling how the individual shooter can make a pair of stocks from it to absolutely suit his own requirement, for I think that that is the real solution of the question of grips.

The speed of the single action versus double action is a mighty interesting one, but I am not sure that even should you be able to bring up the speed of the single action to the double action using both hands it would prove anything; that is, to my way of thinking a revolver is a one-handed proposition, and if it takes two hands with one type to equal the speed that you can get with one hand with the other type, why doesn't that prove that one type is just half as good as the other in the question of speed – for the question of accuracy it would seem to me that the double action would have it all over the single action as you certainly are not utilizing your sights to the fullest extend when "fanning" or "slip shooting".

I have seen Grant Hice since writing you, but at this time of year if you should ask him about, say his wife and family, he would answer to the effect that "probably Notre Dame would have two men on the All-American team", or something of that nature. He is eating, sleeping, dreaming, and thinking nothing but football, and until the All-American team is finally selected, he hasn't room for outside thoughts.

Your 44 is now in the works, and I hope, in the course of about three weeks, to be able to send it to you all dressed up in its new clothes and with the gold bead front sight. I certainly appreciate your offer of your 38 "Record Maker" together with the affidavits, but just at the present time I won't take advantage of it. When I do, we certainly can fix up a trade for the revolvers that you need to fill out your list. I will be particularly interested in doing this not only for the reason of showing my appreciation for what you have done for Smith & Wesson in the past, but also to have the chance to refute the impression that some people have that the present output of the plant is not quite equal to that in the past, whereas, actually I know that our inspection is closer and our manufacturing nicer than it has ever been.

Very cordially yours,
D.B. Wesson
Vice President

So going through this letter bit by bit, we have the following observations:

1) It starts with Wesson talking about trying to make another of Ed's revolvers faster, but by doing so Wesson guesses if the work will affect the durability of other parts.

2) That the factory knew that the original grips weren't that great, but most shooters wouldn't shoot enough to care, and that the overall "look" took precedence over function.

3) Wesson acknowledged the value of making the top and rear in a matte finish, but didn't want to do so because Colt had beaten them to it and he didn't want to be called a copier.

4) the factory experimented with plastic grips. Wesson's idea was that perhaps each shooter could have individualized grips made of plastic (doesn't sound like this came to fruition).

5) There must have been a discussion about the speed of a single action revolver vs the double action Smith. Even though the speed could be similar Wesson thinks it is only "half" as good

6) Some discussion about Grant Hice being a football fanatic. I'm not familiar with the name -- anyone recognize it?

7) The 44 is almost ready (the triple lock above). It appears McGivern offered to trade one of his record breaking revolvers as well as affidavits attesting the feat for one or more new production revolvers. Wesson declines at this point but states that he will take him up on his offer in the future for appreciation of what McGivern has done for Smith.

Anyways, pretty interesting stuff in my opinion -- even the use of the english language during that point in time.

A great big shout out to the SWHF for providing such a great service.

Hope you found this interesting!

 

[Muley Gil]

"I will be particularly interested in doing this not only for the reason of showing my appreciation for what you have done for Smith & Wesson in the past, but also to have the chance to refute the impression that some people have that the present output of the plant is not quite equal to that in the past, whereas, actually I know that our inspection is closer and our manufacturing nicer than it has ever been."

Even back then, folks thought the older (i'm guessing pre WW ONE) S&W revolvers were better than the newer ones.

 

[wogentry]

Awesome and interesting post! Thank you for sharing.

 

[RobertJ.]

Awesome and interesting post! Thank you for sharing.

What he said! Thank you!

 

[sailor723]

Yes, Thank you. That's fascinating stuff.

 

[Decker]

"I will be particularly interested in doing this not only for the reason of showing my appreciation for what you have done for Smith & Wesson in the past, but also to have the chance to refute the impression that some people have that the present output of the plant is not quite equal to that in the past, whereas, actually I know that our inspection is closer and our manufacturing nicer than it has ever been."

Even back then, folks thought the older (i'm guessing pre WW ONE) S&W revolvers were better than the newer ones.

Well, I take that another way.
And that is that it doesn't matter what a company is producing today; their "older" products "must" be better for no other reason than that you can't get them anymore, and that any changes "must" have been made for expedience of production or cost savings on parts.

Short of the stupid lock, my newish Smiths are just as well made and fitted as are my older ones.
In a couple of decades, people will be talking about how the new Smiths are "****" and they will constantly be lamenting how the really "good" ones were made "way back in the early 2000's".

 

[steelslaver]

Thank you for that interesting piece of S&W history and the insight that it gives.

 

[Doc44]

It is always satisfying to find information on a gun or guns that is of interest to the owner and to other collectors. Glad the S&WHF could help.

Bill Cross

 

[loc n load]

Firearms history is always interesting to me, particularly when you have documentation to support it. I read McGivern's book back in the 70's when I was getting started in shooting. In the years following I would understand more about what he was experiencing mechanically with his revolvers when ran at the speeds he was running them. Thanks for sharing.

 

[usm1rifle]

That is some really interesting information, thank you for sharing with the group. You are fortunate to be the custodian of such important firearms.

 

[wogentry]

I was wondering if that 38/44 mentioned in the letter is one that was discussed a week or so ago that was used to set his speed record and is pictured in his book. I'm in a hurry (kids got a soccer game), or I would link to the thread. If I recall correctly one 38/44 is in the NRA museum, and the other is owned by a forum member. If I get a chance I'll look up the link and check the dates. Just a possibility I reckon.

 

[DCWilson]

I think the surname "Hice" is a misreading. The letter says "Grant Rice," which I suspect is a reference to sports journalist Grantland Rice, who was himself an avid competitor in many sports before he began writing about the subject.

 

[RobertJ.]

Short of the stupid lock, my newish Smiths are just as well made and fitted as are my older ones.

What about the bluing? Now, this is just my opinion, so please don't take offense, but I find today's blued S&W's practically un-acceptable on the finish alone. I'd still buy a stainless, however.

 

[ddixie884]

Great info, neat correspondence.

 

[Dennis]

Thank-you for sharing!

 

[jd330]

Oh horrors!! Did D. B.Wesson make the error of calling stocks grips at the end of paragraph 5? We've seen many a mere mortal called out for that one.

 

[mikepriwer]

Beetledude

Regarding the first cursive-handwritten letter in the first post in this thread, the
click to make it larger does not seem to do that. I'm not able to completely read
what is being displayed. Here is what I have been able to make of it. The ????? indicate
that I can't read that field. Would you be so kind as to 'fill in the blanks' for me ?

--------------------------------------------------------
Gentlemen

I have a 44 special revolver with the ?????? forward alignment around
cylinder under barrel. I'd like to have a new Marple Sheard gold bead
sight and a new rear sight blade fitted on this gun.

Would also like to have a 44-40 cylinder with crane complete so that it
will be interchangeable with the present cylinder. What will the cost
be for the job ? The next ?????? of ?????? should have some of the
fast shooting done with S&W Revolver by me in an article by Mr. E S ???? -
more will follow regularly. If you are interested, I'll go into details
in next letter.

Yours very truly, Ed McGivern

Send me catalog and price list of S&W Revolvers.
Don't fail me in this.

EM

----------------------------------------------------------

Thank you, Mike Priwer

 

[Skeetr57]

McGivern Letters

Mike, I don't have any problem magnifying the letters, but in case you still can't, the first word you couldn't read is "reinforced". I believe he is talking about the 3rd model .44.
The next word you had problems with is "issue" and the publication is "Outdoor Life" I believe that the name of the author was EL Stevenson. Hope this helps.
Tom

 

[Rick_A]

Even back then, folks thought the older (i'm guessing pre WW ONE) S&W revolvers were better than the newer ones.

How some things never change.

 

[Buford57]

Fascinating stuff.

I read the front sight request as "Marble or Sheard". Marbles was a gunsight, knife and outdoor product manufacturer in Gladstone, MI.