Wadcutters for self defense

[Ramikrav]

A target WC might do that, but there's plenty of examples where similar ballistics fail to do that, especially against the skull. Given my choices, I'd want more.

This today:

Police: Man continues driving after being shot twice in head | Fox News

I think people underestimate the structural integrity of the human skull, and in whole, underestimate the toughness of the species.

This whole wadcutter thing is interesting, and personally I wouldn't feel bad about a FULL POWER wadcutter load, or a +P one, etc....... but target loads and mouse guns are more likely to result in the above, and if that guy could drive a car, he could put up a fight, I'm guessing.

I'm willing to bet that the weapon used in the above instance sure isn't any sort of service caliber using defensive ammo.

.....and then, we have the stories of Mossad using the .22lr successfully against terrorists armed with AK47s and such......

I'm going to go ahead and say that you need specific training to ensure any handgun is going to work for you, and in some cases, caliber specific training might be in order.
I'm glad I explained about where the weaknesses of the cranial vault are to my wife, and how to exploit them in contact shots with her beretta, and showed her the "zipper technique".

In any case, I think expecting the .38 special target wadcutter to do what a +P defensive load, or even a full power wadcutter, will do is not realistic thinking.

ETA-
This is another reason I chose a .38 snubbie over one of the micro .380's. The ballistics of the .38 special may not be 9mm or .40, but for a small carry gun thats actually SMALL and easy to carry(for me), without being ridiculous to shoot with anything but light loads, the .38 special just shines. While the buffalo bore +p 158gr FBI load might be a bit much, the "standard" FBI load with its big(ish) slug,compared to even 9mm loads from short barrels, is plenty enough for me.

 

[153]

So many serious answers!

Back in simpler days many articles were published in gun magazines in which salty gunmen described all sorts of ways to make lead bullets more effective. As I recall the reverse based .38 wadcutter was supposed to be poison. Used for defense these loads were darn near guaranteed to produce "buckets of blood" when applied to a miscreant.

Recently, I dug my old Model 37 out of the back of the safe. I felt it would be fun to have some vintage style rounds for this old hardware. I asked a friend load up some some of these ...



Not planning on packing this set up. But what's the harm?

 

[Ramikrav]

Recently, I dug my old Model 37 out of the back of the safe. I felt it would be fun to have some vintage style rounds for this old hardware. I asked a friend load up some some of these ...

It sure is a pretty gun...... and the ammo looks like its mean.

 

[Gamecock]

I think people underestimate the structural integrity of the human skull, and in whole, underestimate the toughness of the species.

"shot in the right forehead and right cheek"

Just one to the skull. Half the head is not part of the central nervous system, hence will not result in an immediate stop of an assailant.

Humans can't be defined as tough. Some live through the impossible; some die from seemingly nothing.

 

[Ramikrav]

"shot in the right forehead and right cheek"

Just one to the skull. Half the head is not part of the central nervous system, hence will not result in an immediate stop of an assailant.

Humans can't be defined as tough. Some live through the impossible; some die from seemingly nothing.

Shot twice in the head and still driving a motor vehicle means, to me, that that person, if inclined to do so, is still capable of pulling a trigger, or even using said vehicle as a weapon.

Toughness is an individual characteristic, but without proper blood supply the brain will not function, with severe damage to the brain, same thing. No matter how tough.
The human skull takes advantage of the structural integrity of arches, like roman bridges. I'm sure people here have read anecdotes of rifle projectiles being deflected around the skull, especially around the forehead.... The weak points, for small calibers, are where the skull is compromised by sensory organs and such, where the dome shapes are not apparent.

Getting shot twice in the head and surviving puts a person in a special category of a very limited number of very lucky individuals. Being conscious and able to operate (to a limited extent) a motor vehicle makes it that much more so.

It also demonstrates to a fault the axiom- there are no magic bullets, and no guarantees.

Still, I'd be willing to put money on a bet that says this wasn't a service caliber with a defensive load.

 

[Gamecock]

Still, I'd be willing to put money on a bet that says this wasn't a service caliber with a defensive load.

You just never know. I have a friend who shot a burglar in the head with a .44 magnum, and the perp lived to sue him. Perp lost, but the friend had to close his shop due to insurance becoming impossible.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The standard 158gr lead out of a four inch barrel will have around 200 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.........
Not a bad SD load but not the best either.

per post #61;
A 148gr at 740 and 180 energy is nice but in my M49 snub nose a factory Remington 148gr only kicked out 641 fps with a very low energy of just 135 ft/lbs.
The factory Federal 158gr LRN did 647fps with just 146 ft/lbs of energy.

per post #63;
In Nov. 11th.2010, Guns & Ammo had a article on ammo for the short barrel. One of the loads the author tested was his home made, Hornady 148gr HBWC, loaded backwards.
"The Load" was with 3.5 grs of TightGroup powder and did the following.
Gel: 783 fps penetration 10.2 inches.........minimum expansion.
Cloth: 775 fps penetration 19.3 inches............ NO expansion.

True the 783 fps load had 200 ft/lbs of energy but........a "Reload", not a factory loading....... and yes

that is a very nice looking snub nose.

 

[hiddencreek]

No sir, I am not trolling, I am reading and digesting all of this invaluable information. I began third shift in a detention center 3 months ago and my world is kinda upside down. At my age it isn't easy but it is a hell of an education. So, that said, sorry for my silence but I am still here; thank you all for your responses, you can't go to the store and buy even a fraction of this knowledge. I began this thread because I bought some wadcutters from a friend and then purchased a Model 686; thus my question....Gamecock, little sore from the Cats whipping the Gamecocks a couple of weeks ago? (Gotta take my shot, it has been a lonnnnng time coming! At football, anyway...)

 

[Gamecock]

Gamecock, little sore from the Cats whipping the Gamecocks a couple of weeks ago? (Gotta take my shot, it has been a lonnnnng time coming! At football, anyway...)

I was born in Berea. Half my family went to UK. So it doesn't sting. Much.

 

[Master Gunsmith]

38WC vs Bear

Sat under a tree , looked up to see a 200lb bear looking down at me. Pulled my J Frame loaded with 148 gr. WC 2.8 grains Bullseye, 2 quick shots to the throat. Five second later he hit the ground stone dead. Back when we didn't have all the high tec ammo they have today.

 

[Kinman]

Before the military went to 9mm, back in the 70's the local Air Police from Fairchild AFB used to use a hollow-based wadcutter round in their 38 special revolvers. It was a 158gr. hollow-based wadcutter over 3.5 gr of Reddot (thats what I remember) I remember shooting them with my Colt Trooper and they were very accurate rounds, I figured they would open up to about 45 caliber. It was like looking into funnel. Of course it wouldn't be all that great against armor or a car door but on a typical human torso I would think it would be devastating. I've never been in law enforcement but I've always felt that shot placement counted more than anything else, being able to hit what you shoot at should count for something and this load was very comfortable for my wife to shoot in her little Chief's Special. Better than some high zoot +P load that had her scared to practice.
Of course what I forgot to mention was that the wadcutters were loaded backwards with the hollow-base pointing out.

 

[Skeetr57]

I don't know if Lyman ever did it in .38, but they used to make a very interesting .44 caliber mould. I think the number was 429348. I bought one used around 1980, and looked it up in the then current Lyman manual, which said the the weight was 180 grains in #2 alloy. The base of the bullet was just like any other RN or SWC bullet, but the nose part was of a reduced diameter and pure cylindrical. I cast up a bunch of them and loaded them to 180 grain full power data for .44 special. When I fired them in a M29, they seemed pretty hot, so I did what I should have done first, I weighed some of the bullets and found that they weighed @ 240 grains! Some research in older Lyman catalogs showed that the same number mould was at one time available in both bullet weights. That .44 wadcutter has always looked to me like a very good SD bullet, so I am looking at making up a mould for a similar bullet in .38. It will have a base section 0.358"
diameter up to the crimping groove, and a cylindrical nose section of .350" and a total weight of 158-160 gr. when cast of WW. I will load them to full power service velocities in both .38 Special and .357 Magnum. I believe that they will make excellent SD loads.

 

[Boge]

I am pragmatic in that the NYPD has issued the Speer 135 gr. +p Gold Dot for over ten years now with a boatload of shootings and nothing but praise. It appears it hits the "sweet spot" for weight/velocity that works in snubbies. It's hard to argue to Street results as in the end that's what counts, unless you're shooting rabbits. That's not to say that the old FBI load is bad, just that the Speer load is better and with a snubby you're going to need every advantage you can get as 5 or 6 shots is certainly no "fusillade".

 

[Ramikrav]

I know its uncouth of me to ask, and probably not within policy or even the law for anyone to reply, but I would LOVE to actually hear just a smidgen of the accounts of these shootings, in both the case of the Speer Gold dot and the FBI load.
Not out of a case of sick morbidity, but just for my own personal self defense knowledge.

 

[Boge]

I know its uncouth of me to ask, and probably not within policy or even the law for anyone to reply, but I would LOVE to actually hear just a smidgen of the accounts of these shootings, in both the case of the Speer Gold dot and the FBI load.
Not out of a case of sick morbidity, but just for my own personal self defense knowledge.

Due to our litigious & PC society today they are for the most part unavailable to the general public.

 

[hiddencreek]

I was born in Berea. Half my family went to UK. So it doesn't sting. Much.

Small world, I was born a Tarheel but moved here in '74 to attend Berea College...never left, nice to meet you!

 

[ralph7]

"Because they are making a fortune selling jacketed, hollow point ammo for handguns."...........

+1;

In the old days they pushed lead, it worked and was cheap to make.

Today the JHP is the "IN" bullet................

However I think the company's are breaking even with a box of 148 hbwc Target bullets selling at $28.

"Breaking Even?"
You gotta be kidding!
Big difference between breaking even and making bank.

 

[eyegots2no]

The first book from Sanow indicated that the soft lead---non jacketed---158 grain HOLLOW POINT Semi wadcutter did best. They had soft lead that expanded well---the velocity from snubbies being relatively slow.

It is hard to find them from winchester and federal nowadays---but I have seen remington 's lately.

However---I would like to see some gelatin results with the Hornady FTX critical defense---especially the 90 grain.

 

[Fire Dog]

I think it would be ok to wadcutters. Hey just think of all the hollow points used from the start of the country until now!! oh..wait they used lead bullets didn't they!!! If you make a hole it will bleed

 

[336A]

Sat under a tree , looked up to see a 200lb bear looking down at me. Pulled my J Frame loaded with 148 gr. WC 2.8 grains Bullseye, 2 quick shots to the throat. Five second later he hit the ground stone dead. Back when we didn't have all the high tec ammo they have today.

I'm betting that required a reload of your Fruit of the Looms afterwards, I know I would have needed to.