Wadcutters for self defense

I have a 4" model 29-2 ( not really a snubby, I know) that I use as HD gun with 200 gr.JHP (.44special) ammo from Underwood. I am currently out of them, so I had bought a box of their 200 grain hard cast wadcutters to try them out, and they are currently a temporary replacement. I know this thread is dealing with .38's, but I think this .44 round would be very effective.
 
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sodacan said:
I have a 4" model 29-2 ( not really a snubby, I know) that I use as HD gun with 200 gr.JHP ammo from Underwood. I am currently out of them, so I had bought a box of their 200 grain hard cast wadcutters to try them out, and they are currently a temporary replacement. I know this thread is dealing with .38's, but I think this .44 round would be very effective.
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Don't get me wrong; I love my Model 29-2; but I've, also, got no illusions about it being a good self-defense gun. It is entirely possible to accurately fire a 9mm pistol up to four times faster than a heavily recoiling 44 Magnum.

(I've often done it.)

9mm pistols have been - and are currently - approved by the New Jersey State Police for general issue and field service; but, to my knowledge, 44's (all of them) are only available to NJ State Troopers who apply, individually, and are then subsequently approved to use them.

Me, personally? If I knew I were going to be gunfighting for my life I, sure as heck, wouldn't want to be holding onto a 44 Magnum anything; and I don't care whether or not it's downloaded with 44 Special ammo. ;)
 
Arc Angel said:
Don't get me wrong; I love my Model 29-2; but I've, also, got no illusions about it being a good self-defense gun. It is entirely possible to accurately fire a 9mm pistol up to four times faster than a heavily recoiling 44 Magnum.

(I've often done it.)

9mm pistols have been - and are currently - approved by the New Jersey State Police for general issue and field service; but, to my knowledge, 44's (all of them) are only available to NJ State Troopers who apply, individually, and are then subsequently approved to use them.

Me, personally? If I knew I were going to be gunfighting for my life I, sure as heck, wouldn't want to be holding onto a 44 Magnum anything; and I don't care whether or not it's downloaded with 44 Special ammo. ;)
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Major omission on my part-- the rounds are .44 special, not magnums. I personally would not use the magnum round for HD. I didn't think 9mm was part of this discussion, but it certainly can be an effective round. The .45acp is my preferred ammo for SD. I love slow, fat, heavy rounds. Shoot what you like, and like what you shoot.
 
Wadcutters for self-defense

Anyone here ever heard of Jim Cirillo? He certainly had no problem with using wadcutters for self-defense. Look up his bullet designs.
 
sigp220.45 said:
The one shooting I know of with a factory .38 wadcutter was a woman who shot her very large husband in the armpit with one. He grunted and dropped dead. The medical examiner found the undeformed slug in his pelvis, where it stopped after its farewell tour of many of his vital organs.
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A hard cast wadcutter 150grains at 850-900fps to the pelvis is a nasty mother pumper!! A lot of old beat cops will tell you it's a fight stopper. The 4 I've talked to that have used them on perps wouldn't carry anything but a hot loaded HC full wadcutter in their back-up "J" frames. After what I've seen them do to pelt/bone/sinew first hand... I don't question Underwood's or Buffalo Bore's Hard Cast loads and have been carrying one or the other's version in my back up "J" frame to my primary M629 for years. YMMV, carry what you know works!

NY Reload... Primary with BB 150 HCWC's and back-up with BB 158gr+P Soft-Cast LHP's.
pC4jxBU.jpg


Appalachia Reload: Primary 255gr Hard Casts "Keith's" in .44Special and back up with aforementioned 150 HCWC's...
kmiBWK7.jpg
 
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ralph7 said:
Shot placement is king.
If you could make a face shot under pressure, a target wadcutter could be more decisive than any exotic round in the torso.
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+1 for shot placement. A shot to the heart with a wadcutter beats a SD round to the leg.
 
Otreb said:
A hardcast Wadcutter driven to better than target velocities might be an improvement over rnl, but aside from the shootability benefit of a target WC, they are IMO too slow and too soft for SD applications. They're hard pressed to get low 600fps...not fast enough to reliably break major bones that protect the spots you want to hit.
I guess they are better than nothing of course, but there's a lot of better choices.
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My wadcutters are chronographed at 950 fps out of my 1-7/8" 38 special snubby.

These are not over pressure loads, no flat primers, no sticky extraction, nothing unusual.

It is hard to stomach the amazing widespread ignorance of the fact that a wadcutter is a bullet shape, not a cartridge. Wadcutter shaped bullets can be loaded just as hot as any other shaped bullet.
 
nachogrande said:
With a name like BLACK TALON, TACTICOOL WHATEVER, and a brightly colored box like ZOMBIE MAX, they MUST be good. :D
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Hahaha! You'd be surprised at how effective that kind of marketing appeals to some...

The "Talon's" were/are actually a pretty effective HP. The current HST that most revere (and I regard it well too), are just an updated version of that venerable ol' hollowpoint from past readings/articles on ARFcom...
 
dsink said:
I see this subject come up from time to time and one of the standard responces is, "target wadcutters are to slow"

So let me ask this. At what speed does a wadcutter cross the threshold and go from being a target bullet to a self defense bullet?
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Short answer, a 150+grain Hard Cast with a muzzle velocity of 800fps+ to the pelvis or lower abdomen is devastating. I had multiple email conversations with Tim Sundles about this very load. He guaranteed a Muzzle Velocity of well over 800fps from my 1 7/8" barreled "J" frames and 2" barreled Agent. My 2 "J's" average into the 870's and the "D" frame Colt over 900fps. Tim said he spent a lot of time in the woods growing up/hunting and described the effect this load had on heavy boned & pelted animals. The one animal that I've had to put down with that load was put down quick. They bust thru the skull of an agressive Pitbull and leave a drippy nickel sized hole I can vouch. YMMV, and this is just my experience... use what makes you happy/comfortable and what you shoot well.
 
The British adopted their 38 S&W 380/200 round because they found the lighter recoil improved accuracy in the hands of someone with minimal training. Which is probably a lot more of us than we are willing to admit.
Again, shot placement is all important and Hits with Minor Calibers hurt a lot more than Misses with Majors.
 
FAMED GUNFIGHTER JIM CIRILLO, OF THE NYCPD'S "STAKE OUT SQUAD" USED STANDARD VELOCITY FULL WADCUTTERS IN .38SPL. IN HIS 20 FIREFIGHTS, IN CLOSE TO 300 SHIFTS WITH THE SQUAD....

GIVEN HIS STATUS, HE COULD HAVE SHOT ANYTHING, BUT THIS WAS HIS WEAPON AND AMMO OF CHOICE. HE KILLED ELEVEN AND DISABLED SEVERAL OTHERS, IN THE COURSE OF HIS DUTIES.......

HE USED WHATEVER BRAND OF AMMO THAT THE NYPD HAPPENED TO BE USING FOR TRAINING AT THE TIME.....
 
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If mentioned, I overlooked it, but consider recoil sensitivity.

I have a baaaaad right hand and it hurts like the devil to shoot any of my snubbies with anything close to a self defense riound. Hornady Critical Defense makes a 90 grain load that I can manage, but it smarts.

Docs are gonna fix my hand, and planned surgery in October, but I hurt my foot and am in a wheel chair now so it has to be postponed (Plan to move to crutches in a few wekks and can't manage them with a cast on my right hand).

A snubbie with the standard full wadcutter doesn't hurt, make me flinch, make me cry or even whine.

I have other guns I can shoot, 380 and 9mm without a loooot of pain, but the snubbie with the WCs is still more pleasant and lets me spend quality time at the range.

Bob
 
straightshooter1 said:
If mentioned, I overlooked it, but consider recoil sensitivity.

I have a baaaaad right hand and it hurts like the devil to shoot any of my snubbies with anything close to a self defense riound. Hornady Critical Defense makes a 90 grain load that I can manage, but it smarts.

Docs are gonna fix my hand, and planned surgery in October, but I hurt my foot and am in a wheel chair now so it has to be postponed (Plan to move to crutches in a few wekks and can't manage them with a cast on my right hand).

A snubbie with the standard full wadcutter doesn't hurt, make me flinch, make me cry or even whine.

I have other guns I can shoot, 380 and 9mm without a loooot of pain, but the snubbie with the WCs is still more pleasant and lets me spend quality time at the range.

Bob
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SORRY TO READ ABOUT YOUR HEALTH PROBLEMS, BROTHER. HOPEFULLY, YOU WILL HAVE A SPEEDY AND COMPLETE RECOVERY.....
 
Out of a snubbie, you can see target wadcutters in the air if you shoot them over a pure white, snow covered field. Just sayin'.
 
My two cents--- At the range I shoot about 80 rds of light load wadcutters through my carry weapon, doing some routine drills, it doesn't beat the **** out my weapon but I still get in some good practice. I end up with about 20 rds of mfg. self defense rounds for reality sake. In saying that, I think wadcutters are for the range and not self defense. Jim
 
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