When the other guy carries!!!

[wbraswell]

jtpur, you handled this very well in my opinion. I wonder how many of these LEOs and former LEOs who responded above would differ on carrying in the waist and carrying in the pocket, like you were. Maybe he needed the gun in his waistband to keep his pants up.
Some of these posts sound as bad as these antis, who see someone with a gun, and automatically assume that they are an assassin or gangster.

 

[Shooting Padre]

First part of self defense, be observant.

 

[jtpur]

Thanks to everyone who responded. let me clear up a few items. 1. I am retired. I retired over twenty years ago. 2. I sometime carry in my waist band without a holster. Rarely but I do. So for me it's not evidence of anything other than a poor way to carry. I plead guilty. 3. I was very much into a heightened state of awareness,,but I relaxed when I perceived the threat to be non existent. The counter he walked too was where one places an order. Not near the register. 4. He was pointing at the menu and chatting with his friend. I felt no need to call the police. The workers I was with are not nor ever were cops. When I saw him conceal I knew that no one else noticed so I don't think that fell into the category of Carless Exhibition (The correct charge in this State). 5. I am no longer in Texas.
Disorderly conduct here means creating public danger, alarm or nuciance. Ok maybe I was alarmed but I know he did not see me so his intention was not to cause alarm. I did not include these things in my original post because I did not think they were important but just wanted to clarify my thinking. My point and I think most of you are on the same page is that lets not over react and just because someone is armed does not mean they are a lunatic or a mass murder suspect. Yeah be aware, pay attention and be safe.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Thanks to everyone who responded. let me clear up a few items. 1. I am retired. I retired over twenty years ago. 2. I sometime carry in my waist band without a holster. Rarely but I do. So for me it's not evidence of anything other than a poor way to carry. I plead guilty. 3. I was very much into a heightened state of awareness,,but I relaxed when I perceived the threat to be non existent. The counter he walked too was where one places an order. Not near the register. 4. He was pointing at the menu and chatting with his friend. I felt no need to call the police. The workers I was with are not nor ever were cops. When I saw him conceal I knew that no one else noticed so I don't think that fell into the category of Carless Exhibition (The correct charge in this State). 5. I am no longer in Texas.
Disorderly conduct here means creating public danger, alarm or nuciance. Ok maybe I was alarmed but I know he did not see me so his intention was not to cause alarm. I did not include these things in my original post because I did not think they were important but just wanted to clarify my thinking. My point and I think most of you are on the same page is that lets not over react and just because someone is armed does not mean they are a lunatic or a mass murder suspect. Yeah be aware, pay attention and be safe.

LOL..... the devil is in the small details....... and the Lawyer in me!!!!

I will jump on the "Good call" bandwagon!

 

[unclebob]

My point and I think most of you are on the same page is that lets not over react and just because someone is armed does not mean they are a lunatic or a mass murder suspect.


I understand your point, but as I stated living south of Chicago CC is new in the state so we are not accustomed to seeing private citizens carrying a firearm especially in their waistband unless they are up to no good, because this is what we live with. I don't know what the answer is, I try not to judge but in my experience future results are a direct reflection of past practice. may God bless all those individuals who have to make this distinction to make the right call.....

 

[GerSan69]

jtpur, you handled this very well in my opinion. I wonder how many of these LEOs and former LEOs who responded above would differ on carrying in the waist and carrying in the pocket, like you were. Maybe he needed the gun in his waistband to keep his pants up.
Some of these posts sound as bad as these antis, who see someone with a gun, and automatically assume that they are an assassin or gangster.

In some parts of this great country, assuming the worst until proven otherwise gets the policeman home after his shift. Not my job to make excuses for suspicious (or otherwise) behavior.
Not sure what you mean by the first part of your comment - "differ"?

 

[chmpco]

One thing not mentioned here and should be. When out eating many people also drink. Was the OP not consuming alcohol? Had he had one beer or glass of wine would he have been as cool headed? What about after two?? Three?
My point to all here is obvious. Choose to carry, choose to not drink, period.
I have known many cops who drank off duty still armed and more then one had incidences. We used to laugh at em but today while I carry it seems like sick behavior. Hollywood is primarily responsible for this.

 

[jtpur]

Other guy

One thing not mentioned here and should be. When out eating many people also drink. Was the OP not consuming alcohol? Had he had one beer or glass of wine would he have been as cool headed? What about after two?? Three?
My point to all here is obvious. Choose to carry, choose to not drink, period.
I have known many cops who drank off duty still armed and more then one had incidences. We used to laugh at em but today while I carry it seems like sick behavior. Hollywood is primarily responsible for this.

I was not drinking. How did this get into the conversation. Well ok I was drinking a Diet Pepsi, they don't sell Diet Coke.

 

[wbraswell]

GerSan69, I guess differ may be a regional word. Replace it with "have different opinions".

 

[Art Doc]

You exhibited a small amount of concern, in my opinion. Enough to go on alert and place your hand on your weapon. To me this is not overreacting. My questions is...would you have reacted exactly the same way had the subject been a 22 year old, clean cut white guy?

It's defensible to say one is more concerned by a young black man doing something to raise red flags. Statistically young black men are more likely to be engaged in criminal activity. But as noted simply having a gun is not proof of any wrongdoing.

I have spotted guns being carried numerous times. I don't recall ever feeling particularly threatened, but I'm not a cop and I am also very comfortable around people with guns. Almost casual in my attitude.

One incident I recall was about 20 years ago. Two men in their 30s were loading groceries into their car. I believe they were a couple. They sort of gave me that feeling and the gay pride bumper sticker was a tip off. As one of them leaned into the car his sport coat rode up and partially revealed a holstered semi-auto. The Second Amendment isn't just for rednecks.

 

[Ogandydancer]

I really agree with the OP on this. Also as some other poster mentioned I try to always be vigilant and alert to surrounding conditions when I carry (Which is every time I leave the house) I do however fall woefully short of this goal most of the time.

Also as the OP mentioned I don't carry so I can go around killing people rather I carry to keep from getting killed and if ever necessary to protect someone else who may be in peril of loss of life or great bodily injury.

Also I am not a big fan of Mexican carry, this is not to say I have never done it and still do occasionally it's just not my preferred method but rather I do it if I am in a particular hurry or for some other reason do not want to put on a holster.

 

[BAM-BAM]

One of the reasons I got my first Milt Sparks Summer Special in the 80s was the easy on/easy off feature.......I didn't like "Magnum PI Mexican carry" (butt forward) with a Beretta 92 compact ....and I didn't always want to have to thread a holster onto my belt and deal with 2 belt loops.

 

[Lobster Picnic]

I drew my revolver in traffic yesterday.

I was in the left turn lane at a busy intersection, first in line at the light. The light was still green for the through traffic on my right. Out of that flow of traffic comes a very nice little Mercedes 2-seater coupe, cuts over in front of me like he's going to run the left turn red light. This is maybe a $90,000 car. Unfortunately, the traffic in the other lane never gave him a chance to scoot across, and he was stuck in the intersection when the light changed. Now I can see in his side mirror he looks like an Arab prince and he is apparently cursing me for some reason. His passenger is also gesturing and waving. Why they are waving at me I have no idea. I can't move, with a line of cars behind me and his Mercedes blocking me in front. Anyway, the revolver was out of the center console in case they exited their car.

I had recently seen a YouTube where 2 rich Arabs were racing their Lamborghinis, breaking every traffic law and running through quiet neighborhoods at 100+ MPH. They were telling people they had diplomatic immunity and could not be ticketed or arrested. This guy reminded me of those guys in the video.

Anyway, the cross-traffic had to maneuver around the Mercedes in the intersection and when the left turn light finally went green he gassed it across the intersection. He then jammed on the brakes and almost caused a pile-up as he couldn't figure out where to go. He finally pulled off into a parking lot and I put my J-frame back in the console and continued on.

 

[Cal44]

The OP reacted correctly, it sound like to me.

B

 

[isaactc]

What the other guy...

Well....
I'm retired, so I guess I can say this: my gun would be out and ready. If I were with co-workers (which would have been other cops) they'd be doing the same. And if we were in our jurisdiction, we'd have been all over those guys the second they looked cross-eyed. Not trying to call you out, but jeez, that's about as complacent a reaction as I've ever heard about.
Maybe the new "PC" policing doesn't allow for that reaction these days....I don't know. But I also know from experience "giving the other guy the benefit of the doubt" means letting him have the first shot. That just ain't gonna happen if I can help it.
Just being honest. Pile on if you want, I can take it.

Sorry, but I disagree. I wasn't any Starsky & Hutch, but I disarmed a hell of a lot of bad guys- some easily, some not so much... I think he reacted properly. I am the last guy in the world you would call P.C., but why hassle a guy who hasn't done anything...yet?

 

[Arc Angel]

Sorry, but I disagree. I wasn't any Starsky & Hutch, but I disarmed a hell of a lot of bad guys- some easily, some not so much... I think he reacted properly. I am the last guy in the world you would call P.C., but why hassle a guy who hasn't done anything...yet?

Please allow me to answer this one: Because the large amount of detail included in the OP's SECOND POST far outweighs the scarcity of information contained in the original post, I feel as if I were set up to fail in this thread. Truth be told I did, and I still do completely agree with GerSan69.

In any CQB pistol (or knife) fight a respondent is not dealing in a matter of seconds; he's dealing in a matter of milliseconds, instead. Who's most likely to lose? That would be the guy with the politically correct, laissez faire attitude. In a fast action sport like CQB pistol gunfighting it is a serious tactical error to give the other guy benefit-of-doubt.

The other confrontational mistake you should never make (But I suppose I am as guilty as the next guy of occasionally allowing myself to fall into it.) is that you should never take a genuinely unnecessary chance with your own personal safety. I don't care who does, or doesn't agree. I didn't get to be my present age by being either complacent, careless, or stupid.

 

[GerSan69]

Sorry, but I disagree. I wasn't any Starsky & Hutch, but I disarmed a hell of a lot of bad guys- some easily, some not so much... I think he reacted properly. I am the last guy in the world you would call P.C., but why hassle a guy who hasn't done anything...yet?

As was said, the second post cleared up a lot.
There's a huge difference between what an active policeman would do vs. someone who's retired or not an officer at all. Since we didn't know where the OP fell in that spectrum until he cleared it up for us, we all had to make assumptions - and we made them, based on our own training and experience. One man's "hassle" is another's "good police work."
There's more than one answer. I'm satisfied with that.

 

[Don 73]

I attended a "Street Survival" course a few years ago and the first thing they stressed is that when carrying off duty: HOLSTER, HOLSTER, HOLSTER. ALWAYS USE A HOLSTER! So for me, someone who's carrying without a holster is red flag #1. When getting out of a car and a person switches from one mode of carry to one that's more easily accessible would be flag #2. Then coming in the establishment as a "team" would be flag #3.

At that point, assuming I was seated at a table, (If standing, I would have gone unobtrusively towards cover) I would have cleared the cover garment away from the my weapon in a way so as NOT to draw attention to myself and been prepared to draw, definitely in condition Red (I consider 'red' just below Condition 'Black' - where the SHTF and shots ARE or ARE GOING TO BE FIRED).

From there, the males actions would have dictated my reaction. In the given scenario, I would probably remain in a stage of red until I saw them walking to their table with food. THEN I would have dropped down to a lesser condition of concern.

People who intend to rob a place normally want to get in & out as fast as possible so no one can get a good look at them to give a description to the police, and I honestly don't see them ordering food and sitting down to eat BEFORE robbing the place. So I would probably drop to the condition I was in before I saw the gun ... alert, but relaxed. IMO, the OP did just fine.

 

[walkin' trails]

Years ago while traveling thru Arizona, I stopped for gas. A biker bearing the colors of a notorious outlaw motorcycle gang pulled up to the pump next to me .He had a Browning HiPower strapped onto his belt. I had a J frame on my ankle, but my primary pistol was under the front seat. I remembered that Arizona had open carry back then, but I also wondered about felon-in-possession .

I now live on a state line .One state allows open carry and no longer has a permit requirement. The other still requires a permit. Whether you are active LE, a retired LEO, or civilian concealed carry, you can't let your skills perish .Not every situation is going to become an armed encounter, but you should be able to observe, evaluate, and discern. Times are changing, so be able to adapt.

 

[joeintexas]

Nobody hurt, everyone goes home in one piece. What's not to like.