Titegroup Question...

[joeintexas]

A lot of folks don't care for TG. I have had good luck using it in 9mm, 45acp and 38spl. I haven't loaded it in magnum loads however. I agree with your original assessment on the blown gun, it was more than likely a double charge. Just my opinion. Sounds to me like you are very careful when loading and are comfortable with Tightgroup, then why not use it as you have been doing. It's not my favorite powder but I have never had a problem with it either. I have found if I follow powder company's published loads I am pretty safe and I've never seen one recommend a filler.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

Updated "great Bible book of Hornady " load listings for a 350 gr bullet /s&w 500. Powders listed from 28gr.-52gr.for a reason!

I was curious what manual showed titegroup as an option for a powder in a 500! This one didnt. Power pistol came close as one of the only "pistol" powders I've used that can be used, but in a 300 gr. Bullet.

 

[joe44va]

I've been reloading for over 30 years and consider myself to be extremely careful and anal.
Last year I blew up a Kahr P9 with a double load of Clays. It wasn't the gun, it wasn't the powder, it was me.
The burned hand healed and I was able to fix the P9. Life goes on.

 

[cherokeetracker]

While cruising the new Cabela's and then going to the Bass Pro close by, I heard some kind'a disturbing info about the Titegroup I'm using to reload for my 500...

I was mainly looking for Large Rifle Magnum primers and during the discussion with the guy's at Bass Pro the subject of the powder I used came up. When they found out I was using Titegroup they immediately asked if I was using a "filler". I said no and that's when they got REALLY excited, telling me about a guy that blew up a 500 using Titegroup!! I asked how much powder he was using and it was 17gr, the bullet size was never mentioned. Naturally S&W and Hodgden both supposedly denied responsibility but that was not really my question to them. I asked how, if he had the correct charge, just how did this happen because Titegroup is not a "directional" powder; it doesn't have to be in contact with the primer to ignite. They told me that if the powder is laying flat it changes how the burn rate is for the powder and can jack the pressure up....

I'm like,, REALLY??? Are you sure he didn't throw a double charge in there??? They said no way, it was how the powder was positioned in the case......

I'm not the brightest bulb in the box but I'm not the dimmest one either... I've done a TON of reading/research on powders before deciding on using Titegroup because it fit's the performance parameters I'm wanting. Hogdgen doesn't have any recommendations as far as using a filler and as far as I'm concerned, I'll not be using any until they do..

In say, the 17gr of Titegroup mentioned, there is a certain amount of pressure produced when the powder is ignited.. How would the position of the powder in the case affect the pressure produced?? That is the question I'm asking you guy's! How could the pressure increase enough without a double throw of powder because I'm thinking that what happened: A double throw!!!

Thoughts anyone??? And Please, Let's stick to the one powder mentioned: Titegroup! Less confusion that way!!!

Many Thanks!!

To address the question,,,, It would have had to have been a double charge OR Double throw depending upon what one chooses to call it. Why do I say this? Or even suggest such a thing? First off, 17 grains is 5/10ths over max,,, with 16.5 grains giving us 50,600 according to Hodgdon's manual. With an XFrame surely we can live with 17 grains..... OK Let's double that, and it gives us 34 grains. Still room enough to seat the 440 grain cast Performance Bullet. " Loading Ratio" The loading Ratio will put that quantity of powder at 86.9% Hmmm
Without Compressing the powder, we have a seated bullet. This should give us in the neighborhood of 119,102 PSI
So in theory it would have had to been a double charge, OR,,,, The notorious, Vicious," Gunshop Commando" has struck again.
Facts:
Titegroup is NON Position Sensitive. 14.5 grains is less than 17 grains and I have used it before many times if I don't want to use full power loads. IT does NOT need a filler of any kind. Hodgdon said I could even go down as far as 12 grains but not any less. I tried a few and went back to 14.5 grains. You know when you shoot a 440 grain Cast Bullet at anything,, something Over 1000 FPS is going to get some attention on both ends. Between 14.5 and 16.5 you gain a whopping 87 FPS. (Maybe)
Oh and 17 grains I don't think it would blow up an X Frame.
Of course I know what you thinking,,,,,, Commando Joe, used a magnum rifle Primer and that pushed it right over the edge.

 

[fredj338]

I've been reloading for over 30 years and consider myself to be extremely careful and anal.
Last year I blew up a Kahr P9 with a double load of Clays. It wasn't the gun, it wasn't the powder, it was me.
The burned hand healed and I was able to fix the P9. Life goes on.

Hard to that with Clays IMO. A dbl charge should just about fill the case? Still, stranger things have happened. Consider Clays has about 1.4x the volume as TG, yeah, never did like TG.

 

[fredj338]

Of course I know what you thinking,,,,,, Commando Joe, used a magnum rifle Primer and that pushed it right over the edge.

I know that was tongue in cheek, but In my own chrono testing, mag primers have less affect on faster powders than slower powders. At some point you can't seem to over ignite a fast powder. I even tried rifle primers in a 45acp load once to see. It did raise vel quite a bit, so at a max load, maybe you get a pressure spike. Without pressure testing equip, it's a wag.

 

[roscoepc]

Large Rifle Magnum Primers are what Hodgden calls to be used with Titegroup so that's what I've been using with good results so far.....

 

[fredj338]

Large Rifle Magnum Primers are what Hodgden calls to be used with Titegroup so that's what I've been using with good results so far.....

I believe they recommend lrm for the 500 in general, regardless of the powder. I could make any powder work on any handgun rd, it's just some are better than others. You want yo have some fun, fill it up with black powder & a lead bullet.

 

[roscoepc]

Reading back through all the post's, I believe my question was answered to my satisfaction which is: Yep!! The Bass Pro guy's are just repeating an urban legend regarding a PROPERLY measured load involving Titegroup that blew up a 500 due to mystical things happening inside the casing during powder ignition....

In short they're full'a Ka-Ka!!!!!!!

And to all that said there's better powder's for the 500 than Titegroup, I thank you! However please remember that I'm aiming for certain performance levels using a 350gr bullet!!

I want 1100-1200fps which Titegroup provides and provides safely using the proper precautions while handling the powder while measuring and locking the round!!

I am very open to suggestions and are more than willing to load more powder per case if you'll tell me what powder will provide this velocity with this bullet size and with either online or book loading spec's I will be more than happy to check into it and I will greatly appreciate the info!!

Many thanks to all who took the time to respond!!!!

 

[Rule3]

So in other words you really do not want to shoot a 500 SW magnum.

Is yours a 10" barrel?, if not then you are not even getting the claimed 1,000 to 1400 fps

It is not just Titegroup it could be say Bullseye or any other fast powder.

But if that is what you have and that is what you want to shoot, that is if course your choice, yes the data is there, just be careful out there with the powder charge.

 

[ruggyh]

However please remember that I'm aiming for certain performance levels using a 350gr bullet!!
I want 1100-1200fps which Titegroup provides and provides safely using the proper precautions while handling the powder while measuring and locking the round!!
I am very open to suggestions and are more than willing to load more powder per case if you'll tell me what powder will provide this velocity with this bullet size

A case full of Trailboss will get you very close.

Many of the slower rifle powders would also be suitable and even at 100% case fill will not exceed the 60Kpsi

I am not in the states currently and don't have access to all my 500 Data but would suggest you look for the Write up done by John Ross which list the powders, suitability and performance expectations. He worked with a number of notable ballistions to develop real data for the cartridge.

 

[fredj338]

Reading back through all the post's, I believe my question was answered to my satisfaction which is: Yep!! The Bass Pro guy's are just repeating an urban legend regarding a PROPERLY measured load involving Titegroup that blew up a 500 due to mystical things happening inside the casing during powder ignition....

In short they're full'a Ka-Ka!!!!!!!

And to all that said there's better powder's for the 500 than Titegroup, I thank you! However please remember that I'm aiming for certain performance levels using a 350gr bullet!!

I want 1100-1200fps which Titegroup provides and provides safely using the proper precautions while handling the powder while measuring and locking the round!!

I am very open to suggestions and are more than willing to load more powder per case if you'll tell me what powder will provide this velocity with this bullet size and with either online or book loading spec's I will be more than happy to check into it and I will greatly appreciate the info!!

Many thanks to all who took the time to respond!!!!

How long have you been reloading? Any powder SLOWER than TG will give you the same vel & do it with a greater powder volume inside the case & lower pressures. Yes it will cost you a tiny bit more but in handgun rds, powder is pretty cheap compared to the bullets. If you are happy with TG for your midrange loads, have at it, but the risks are just greater than the reward IMO. Just open a reloading manual & look at the data. PowerPistol, Longshot, even Unique & any powder on that burn range will easily get you 1200fps.

 

[cherokeetracker]

I know that was tongue in cheek, but In my own chrono testing, mag primers have less affect on faster powders than slower powders. At some point you can't seem to over ignite a fast powder. I even tried rifle primers in a 45acp load once to see. It did raise vel quite a bit, so at a max load, maybe you get a pressure spike. Without pressure testing equip, it's a wag.

fredj338 You are right, my statement was tongue in cheek, since this is what the manual calls for. You are correct again with your information concerning different primers.

 

[cherokeetracker]

Large Rifle Magnum Primers are what Hodgden calls to be used with Titegroup so that's what I've been using with good results so far.....

My statement was tongue in cheek, simply because this IS what the manual calls for. My point being that one should stay with what the manual calls for, for best results, and safe results.

All comments appreciated.

 

[gunfighter48]

I loaded 45 Colt loads for 8 years with Tite Group when I did Cowboy Action Shooting and never had a problem with any of my loads. I also used it in my 45ACP loads. Worked good for me. And yes the guys at Bass Pros are full of **** but what else is new from the idiots that work at gun counters!!

 

[Rule3]

45 Colt and 45 ACP are totally different, lower pressure calibers than SW 500 Magnum so the comparison really has nothing to do with loading a 500 Magnum.
TG (or other fast powders)is fine in those calibers, more so in the 45 ACP. 45 Colt depending on the gun can be loaded mild to wild and near Magnum loads.

Bullseye has been the standard GI powder in 45 ACP for 100 years.

 

[alwslate]

Charles Petty is a big fan of Titegroup and largely because of it's
versatility for loads that are somewhat below maximum. He wrote an
excellent article in Handloader # 292, Oct. 2014, in which he calls
Titegroup the jack-of-all-trades powder. He lists useful loads for 24
different calibers and says there's no handgun cartridge that can't be
loaded with Titegroup. Anyone interested in using the versatile and
economical Titegroup should read his article.

 

[M3Stuart]

Utter. Nonsense.

(referring to the OP's original story, not the many comments that followed).

 

[roscoepc]

Utter. Nonsense.

(referring to the OP's original story, not the many comments that followed).

Thank you!!!!!!! Clear, Concise, and to the point!!!!!!!!!!

 

[fredj338]

Charles Petty is a big fan of Titegroup and largely because of it's
versatility for loads that are somewhat below maximum. He wrote an
excellent article in Handloader # 292, Oct. 2014, in which he calls
Titegroup the jack-of-all-trades powder. He lists useful loads for 24
different calibers and says there's no handgun cartridge that can't be
loaded with Titegroup. Anyone interested in using the versatile and
economical Titegroup should read his article.

The guy just loves TG. Seriously, any powder can be used to reload just about any caliber. To call one jack of all trades is laughable, especiallg something as fast as TG. Any medium burner will be more versatile as you get into the magnum calibers & even rifles. There is a reason Unique has such a huge following, truly a joat in smokeless powders; shotgun, rifle of pistol. Then again, that could apply to any number of other powders.