Titegroup Question...

This thread really illustrates some of the problems with the reloading
forum. A guy asks a fairly specific question involving a powder he
already has and opens the door for a few of the regular know-it-alls to
redirect the thread topic to an opportunity to prove how brilliant they
are. All kinds of responses that absolutely do not speak to the original
theme. Where does anyone read that the OP asks for opinions on the
best powder for loading the 500 ctg? Where does anyone read that
the OP asks for dire warnings and suggestions that he is incapable of
using a specific powder without losing body parts? Smug in their
knowledge that they are never wrong certain regular posters seldom
pass up a chance to redirect a thread topic to a theme that just begs
for their "expert" advice.
 
Ya, don't you hate when people do that or bring up Magazine articles they tell us how wonderful a powder is.?:rolleyes:

The OP was actually asking about using filler as he heard it at Bass Pro, so it was downhill from there!:D
 
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This thread really illustrates some of the problems with the reloading
forum. A guy asks a fairly specific question involving a powder he
already has and opens the door for a few of the regular know-it-alls to
redirect the thread topic to an opportunity to prove how brilliant they
are. All kinds of responses that absolutely do not speak to the original
theme. Where does anyone read that the OP asks for opinions on the
best powder for loading the 500 ctg? Where does anyone read that
the OP asks for dire warnings and suggestions that he is incapable of
using a specific powder without losing body parts? Smug in their
knowledge that they are never wrong certain regular posters seldom
pass up a chance to redirect a thread topic to a theme that just begs
for their "expert" advice.

Yep, then there are the cry baby, college prof types that offer nothing to the discussion at all but enjoy a good whine. If a thread or response bothers you, don't play.
Many of us answered the op question directly. Then, not because we know it all, but maybe a bit more than the op, offer suggestions as to a better approach. It's an open forum, sharing thoughts & ideas. Don't like it, don't care really. Now where did I put that cheese to go with the whine??
 
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^^^^^^

Exactly. Some have tried to educate the OP (who admits being new) on the different powder characteristics.

Others post a reference to Magazine article that has nothing to do with the 500 SW Mag. How does that help?

deadhorse1.gif
 
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I don't really understand the desire for a greatly reduced 500 at all. 45-70 is a better choice for economy loading ... if there is such a thing with any of these moose missiles.
From round ball and shot loads on up to 500gr engine block busters, its out there somewhere.

The short explanation is I want to shoot the 500 comfortably and for more than 20 rounds per range visit. :D Ya can't do either with anything much above a 350gr Winchester Reduced Recoil round, which I decided is the particular load that my gun "like's" as far as accuracy and felt recoil. With a muzzle velocity of 1350fps/1418ft-lbs it's not as stout as the larger rounds but it's STILL a magnum round for the 500.

Right now I'm probably at about 1100fps with my hand rolled ones, (not chrono'd yet), but it's a very comfortable round to shoot in the gun..

Is my load economical?? At a bit over $0.35/round I'd like to think so!! :D
 
^^^^^^

Exactly. Some have tried to educate the OP (who admits being new) on the different powder characteristics.

Others post a reference to Magazine article that has nothing to do with the 500 SW Mag. How does that help?

deadhorse1.gif


I'm assuming I'm what's getting beaten with the hammer??!!!!! :eek: :D :D :D :D
 
I'm assuming I'm what's getting beaten with the hammer??!!!!! :eek: :D :D :D :D

No, not you whatsoever at all.:D

When a topic get long and drawn out it is refereed to as: "beating a dead horse";)

Lee FCD

Wet vs dry tumbling

Can I shoot +P in xyz gun etc etc

Dillon is the greatest.
 
Dear Roscoepc !
My answer to your question is phisical-chemical , the total burn time of a charge is affected by the burn-rate and the distance the flame has to travel in the material (you have to multiply the two) , the prsure-peak timeing is built relatively to the answer to the mentiond equation and the prsure-peak-fortitude is affected by it too and the surface-erea and the volume of the chamber (all 3 variables) .
So if the surface erea ignited is larger in one case - no doubt the presure-peak will be differnt ! .
So if the powder is filling the cartridge totally , the surface-erea ignited is the cut-width-erea of the cartridge, and if the powder is less in volume than it can get a lot bigger ignition-surface (cut-length-erea) of the cartridge .
To my humble opinion, if you will use a solid filler on top of the powder charge you will eliminate the possibility of higher presure-peak.
Good luck
O.g.

Excellent answer!!!! DING DING DING DING we have a winner!!!!!

The OP asked "In say, the 17gr of Titegroup mentioned, there is a certain amount of pressure produced when the powder is ignited.. How would the position of the powder in the case affect the pressure produced?? That is the question I'm asking you guy's! How could the pressure increase enough without a double throw of powder because I'm thinking that what happened: A double throw!!!"

The same thing happens in rifle cases with fast burning powders. The min/max charge of a fast burning powder like reddot in a 30-06 case is around 4gr with most bullets. The fast burning powder is spread out the length of the llloooooonnnngggg case and the powder flashes off the whole length of the case changing the burn rate/pressure.

When I look at different powders and I'm trying to decide if I want to test them. I'll look at the powders burn rate, if it's a high energy powder (high nitroglycerin content/also good for melting powder hoppers if left in them) and a lee powder dipper chart.

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

This tells me the density of a powder. Over the decades I've had my best results with my reloads when I've kept my pistol loads in the 70%+ load capacity. So if I find that a fast burning powder that is extremely dense it tends to work better in small cases.

A good example titegroup vs clays:
Both are fast burning powders with similar burn rates. But the titegroup is allot denser, using a lee 1cc powder dipper;
titegroup ='s 11.8gr
clays ='s 6.8gr
The clays has 173% more case capacity for the came load compared to titegroup. (reddot is close to clays in density/1cc ='s 7.1gr).

This tells me that the titegroup would be better suited for small capacity cases & the clays would be better suited for large capacity cases.

I understand the op looking for a reduced load, I also understand other peoples concern about using a high density/high energy powder like titegroup for that reduced load. Personally I like to use these powders for plinking/powder puff/target loads.



clays 1cc ='s 6.8gr
am select 1cc ='s 7.5gr
trailboss 1cc ='s 4.6gr

Plinking loads of clays:
Clays ='s a fast burning powder that isn't very dense/better for larger capacity cases.



Plinking loads of bullseye:
Bullseye ='s a high energy fast burning powder that has a medium density/better for small capacity cases.

45acp's & bullseye



38spl's & bullseye (left 2 targets)



Anyway, hope this helps in answering your question about powder position and hopefully give you something to look at when you studying different powders.

O-ya, something else to look at. There was some mention of bullseye powder and problems. It used to be the "bad boy on the block" decades ago. It looks like titegroup wears the crown now. What alliant (hercules powder co) released back in the 60's to help reloaders understand the affects of bullet seating depths and powder charges (double charge) and how those things related to pressure increases/kabooms.

 
I admit to never owning or shooting a .500 or even handloading for one but I do have experience with TiteGroup. I am a former competitive trapshooter (PA state Class AA champion in 2000) and shot and reloaded Remington shells almost exclusively. When the STS and Nitro 27 family of target loads was introduced, the powder used in the hotter Nitro 27 handicap shells was and I think still is TiteGroup.

Consider the interior volume of a 12-gauge shotshell and then picture even the maximum charge of just 18.1 grains of TiteGroup under 1-1/8 ounces of lead shot (that's 482.2 grains of projectile weight not including the wad's weight) in the bottom of that wide hull. Pretty thin layer of powder, huh? And even with the longest wad Remington makes for 12-gauge target loads, the TGT-12, which also is in the factory loading, there is air space between the wad's over-powder cup and the powder unless the shell's crimp is very concave. Double-charging can easily be accommodated by the hull but maybe not by the gun.

I am not a TiteGroup fan in trap loads because of felt recoil. I'm a proponent of larger charges of slower powders - they exhibit more of a push than a punch when the gun is fired even when my chronograph tells me the muzzle velocity of the two rounds is nearly the same and I don't know which shell I was handed (I used nothing but the now discontinued IMR PB for many years). I've also tried TiteGroup in revolver target loads and find that it doesn't burn real cleanly, I suppose because of a pressure drop caused by the barrel-cylinder gap. It works decently in my .38 Super and .45ACP 1911s but a heavier charge of AutoComp gives me better accuracy at the same velocity.

I'm with the guys who are suggesting a different powder. I know some of them are still a little hard to find although that situation is improving every day but here's a suggestion. Stop shopping where everybody else does! Bass Pro Shop and Cabela's never have much of anything that is in demand on hand because so many people shop there. Instead, seek out the small gun shops in your area and if you don't know where they are, ask at the gun club to which you belong (you do belong to at least one, right?) In this area, that's where the inventory is, not at our local BPS, Field & Stream or the Cabela's an hour away. I mainly patronize two local shops and I have seldom come home without what I went for and I do a lot of handloading.

Powders as fast-burning as TiteGroup belong mainly in rounds like the aforementioned .38 Special and .45ACP target loads and of course some shotgun rounds. That "handrifle" of yours yearns for a slower-burning fuel.

Ed
 
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The short explanation is I want to shoot the 500 comfortably and for more than 20 rounds per range visit. :D Ya can't do either with anything much above a 350gr Winchester Reduced Recoil round, which I decided is the particular load that my gun "like's" as far as accuracy and felt recoil. With a muzzle velocity of 1350fps/1418ft-lbs it's not as stout as the larger rounds but it's STILL a magnum round for the 500.

Right now I'm probably at about 1100fps with my hand rolled ones, (not chrono'd yet), but it's a very comfortable round to shoot in the gun..

Is my load economical?? At a bit over $0.35/round I'd like to think so!! :D

just troubled myself to compute cost of a few of mine.
I have a full house 405 grain 45-70 load that hits the pocket book at about 24 cents a pop.

I have a solid midrange 44 mag load that runs at about 12 cents. Good shoot all day load without becoming useless off paper targets.

I also have a 45 ACP load that is fairly right around the same economics as the 44 load mentioned give or take a cent... probably take.

Thing with each of them is also that my operating pressures are fairly low, which extends my case life over yours significantly.
the price for replacement brass .... its all cheaper than 500 and the 45 nearly freeloads on range brass.

But don't look at this as a condescending lecture or a competition. Its an excuse to buy more guns.
Magnum Research BFR in 30-30 might be a serious ballistic playground.

just sayin'
 
As to economics or price per round what bullet are you using?

If it is a XTP than most of your expense is in the projectile regardless of powder used.

But I do not know for sure as too many twists and turns in this thread.;)
 
As to economics or price per round what bullet are you using?

If it is a XTP than most of your expense is in the projectile regardless of powder used.

But I do not know for sure as too many twists and turns in this thread.;)

its nearly irrelevant.
Everything 500 is priced for war.

He probably would have everything he wants in a BFR 30-30 and have soda money left over.
 
A case full of Trailboss will get you very close.

Many of the slower rifle powders would also be suitable and even at 100% case fill will not exceed the 60Kpsi

I am not in the states currently and don't have access to all my 500 Data but would suggest you look for the Write up done by John Ross which list the powders, suitability and performance expectations. He worked with a number of notable ballistions to develop real data for the cartridge.

Actually trail boss is a poor choice. It is designed for lead bullets at low pressure & does not take compression well. Unless shooting bunnyfarts loaded with lighter lead bullets, pass on TB.
 
As to economics or price per round what bullet are you using?

If it is a XTP than most of your expense is in the projectile regardless of powder used.

But I do not know for sure as too many twists and turns in this thread.;)

The cost issue always bugs me when it comes to powder choice. On a handgun, even the 500, powder is the cheap part. If rosco is shooting jacketed bullets, huge cost. Switching to plated or lead of coated lead, big savings. At the vel/pressure levels talked about, all will work well vs jacketed.
 
As to economics or price per round what bullet are you using?

If it is a XTP than most of your expense is in the projectile regardless of powder used.

But I do not know for sure as too many twists and turns in this thread.;)

My apologies for not posting the bullet manufacturers..

I use the Berrys 350gr plated SN for target practice at about $0.35/round. These are rated for up to 2000fps by Berrys due to the heavier copper plating vs the other plated bullets they sell..

For hunting I use the 350gr Hornady XTP JHP which costs me about $0.85 + per round

I described my set-up and the cost per round in this thread link:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/447104-can-you-save-money-reloading.html

And Yes!! I was beaten soundly about the head and shoulders by many about my supposed cost savings I was posting about!!!

Feel free to join in with the masses there and abuse me on that thread also!!!! :D :D :D :D :D
 
Those that tell you they don't save $$ reloading are doing something wrong. Your doing pretty good even at 85c each. Look into coated lead bullets at that vel level. At about 28c each, your 500 gets pretty cheap to shoot vs factory.
 
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Those that tell you they don't save $$ reloading are doing something wrong. Your doing pretty good even at 85c each. Look into coated lead bullets at that vel level. At about 28c each, your 500 gets pretty cheap to shoot vs factory.


Thanks Fred!! Ya made me feel good!! :D :cool: :cool:
 
My apologies for not posting the bullet manufacturers..

I use the Berrys 350gr plated SN for target practice at about $0.35/round. These are rated for up to 2000fps by Berrys due to the heavier copper plating vs the other plated bullets they sell..

For hunting I use the 350gr Hornady XTP JHP which costs me about $0.85 + per round

I described my set-up and the cost per round in this thread link:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/447104-can-you-save-money-reloading.html

And Yes!! I was beaten soundly about the head and shoulders by many about my supposed cost savings I was posting about!!!

Feel free to join in with the masses there and abuse me on that thread also!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

Either way you should be saving money especially on the big calibers 44 Mag, 460 SW, 500 SW those calibers are outrageous prices. You can absolutely save money reloading. I see the prices at the LGS and it's scary!

People say you don't because you shoot more but if you limit yourself and don't go crazy of course you save money. I limit how much ammo I take to the range, if I don't have it I can't shoot it!,
Those that bought components long ago at much cheaper price save even more, I load near ever handgun caliber and 4 rifle. If I did not reload I would not be shooting!

Most here are actually here to help. not to beat up and abuse you.:D
 
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Yep, reloading saves you money, especially on magnum caliber & rifles. I used to shoot 100rds of 44mag every weekend. Even the cheapest ammo would break the bank. I can Reload high quality 44mag, light medium or full power, for about $15/100 buying bullets. If I cast them, & I do, I'm shooting 44mag for about $5/100. Yeah, I don't save money reloading.
If I owned a 500, I would get a bullet mold & start casting my own. For the cost of a mold, bottom pour pot, toaster oven, lee sizing die, some powder coat, less than the $280/1000 to buy commercial.
 
If I owned a 500, I would get a bullet mold & start casting my own. For the cost of a mold, bottom pour pot, toaster oven, lee sizing die, some powder coat, less than the $280/1000 to buy commercial.

Whereabouts in Kalifornistan ya located? I need a casting mentor. ;)
 
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