Help Me Save My Son

[UGlide]

I hope you can respond to this and assist me …to save my son. I apologize in advance if you think this is too long. Despite my pro-Second Amendment perspectives over my lifetime (I'm in my mid-60's), my adult son has not supported my views. I have a number of firearms, I've attended some self-defense training courses, and I practice; moreover, my family has been the victim of crime; but yet my son does not support my views about the Second Amendment, firearms ownership, and training. I can only assume that private school, and undergrad and post-grad universities contributed to his dismissal of and disdain for firearms and firearm owners, as have his like-minded in-laws, friends and the mainstream media which targets his demographic. That and the fact that he lives in California. Now that my son has two small children, he seems to be (but I'm not sure) reconsidering my pro-2A comments and the seeds I've planted in his mind regarding his responsibility to defend his family. He's been challenging me in discussion lately (mostly email, since we live a long distance away - Oregon), and this is a good thing because he seems to be listening, if not yet agreeing, and there is an opportunity to widen the door of understanding. In the context of this, he and his sphere have been using Facebook (which I do not use; and if I did, he would not allow me to be his "Friend" to read their postings). I now see a greater opportunity to influence not only him, but others in his social media universe when he posts my comments to him – which he hinted at doing.

Regarding crime and firearms-related statistics that have come up in conversations among his social peers, I'm struggling to keep up with the recent liberal, ant-gun media's "facts" he shoots at me when I know they are not facts; but rather, distortions at best and outright lies at worst. I've followed John Lott's work somewhat over the years, particularly after reviews similar to this:
Damn Lies -- or Statistics.

I said to my son that John Lott is and has been the expert, and expert witness, and there has been a coordinated effort to attempt to discredit him by putting self-serving spin on his research. But when he and others later prove that the discreditors were wrong and had even lied, it doesn't matter, the damage had already been done – the confusion and doubt in the uninformed public had been created. The liars win again, because a lie often repeated becomes truth, or at a minimum, maybe just doubt. And if it's spread through the mainstream media, doubt is all that the liars need.

Today my son challenged me to respond to this:

Instead of arguing about guns on Twitter, Neil deGrasse Tyson just laid out the numbers.

I'm unsure now how to respond; but I cannot be sarcastic or dismissive as is the "other side" (and sometimes as we are when we're frustrated with them). Any comments regarding these new "facts" by the "world famous scientist, Neil deGrasse Tyson"?

Thank you in advance.

 

[therewolf]

For one thing, gun-grabbers inflate their numbers

with deceptive statistics. If you fall off a ladder in your

home, and you own a gun, that is termed a "gun

related accident" .

"Gun Violence" deaths, for instance, include hunting accidents,

police shooting violent offenders, etc.

 

[chuckster57]

I agree this isn't about second amendment, but rather personal views. We are all allowed to have them and not have another persons views forced on us.

I have three sons and one of them is anti gun, anti government. Am I trying to "save" him? Nope, he is an adult and can live his life as he see's fit. Am I concerned for him? Yes but again, he is an adult and since we still live in the land of the free, I will defend his right to be what he is.

 

[chud333]

Just ask your boy, is he OK with having
his Freedoms and Liberties dictated and
eroded.
If so, get him a tourist VISA to N. Korea
and have him visit with the locals.
Just to see how well it's working out for others
who are accustomed to grabbing their ankles.

Maybe this is considered flippant to some.
It's certainly not meant to be.
It is exactly what i would do.
No apologies.

As stated before, he's a grown man right?


Chuck

 

[retiredbadge8091]

Leave your son's views and opinions to himself and your gun collection to your local pro Second Amendment gun club, the NRA or your pro gun friends and relatives.

 

[2hawk]

The commonest denominator of the gun-banners is their absolute refusal to acknowledge the fact that criminals (or terrorists, another kind of criminal) will not abide by the law. The logical disconnect is astounding. But, it does not stop many otherwise intelligent, progressive thinkers from offering up gun bans, buy backs, and confiscatory schemes reminiscent of Australia or the UK. The numbers in those countries will show that these schemes have succeeded in disarming the general, law abiding populace, but allowed the criminal classes to flourish.

Yes, the US has more guns per capita. It therefore follows that we would have a higher percentage of gun crime. Much of which can be attributed to the creation of a permanent underclass, but that's a subject for another place. The media push numbers deliberately skewed to advance an anti-gun agenda, as do many government agencies. If your son is going to rely on the likes of Neil DeGrass-Tyson to do his thinking for him, he may need to be encouraged to really look at the historical context of the 2A in this country, as well as what has happened in countries where the gun banners went on to murder their populaces. If he is intellectually honest he can make up his own mind, and you need not question him about his adult decisions, as he need not question you on yours.

Of course, if you have the chance, get him to the range once in awhile for pure recreation. That is usually the best cure for anti's that I've found.

Good Luck.

PS Just ran across this website:
http://americangunfacts.com/

I would also recommend some of the NRA spokespersons' videos, like Colin Noir. He can speak to a younger demographic pretty well, and cuts right to the chase.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwmTiO0YfEI[/ame]

 

[radar1972]

I have to agree with Watchdog and chuckster... don't try to make your adult son into something you want him to be and that he does not want to be. You had your chance to instill certain values in him while he was growing up. Now that he's grown his value system is his choice... right or wrong.

 

[Decker]

The Degrasse tweets are senseless BECAUSE they are cold statistics without giving ANY consideration to the detailed breakdown of the gun incidents.
One simple example is that a person who kills someone else using a gun in dire self defense is included in those "raw" statistics, so Degrasse is actually arguing that the intended victim is the one who should have died.
Your son needs to be taught that "the devil is in the details", and he has bee deceived by the Left about the details his entire life.

 

[BC38]

For one thing, gun-grabbers inflate their numbers

with deceptive statistics. If you fall off a ladder in your

home, and you own a gun, that is termed a "gun

related accident" .

"Gun Violence" deaths, for instance, include hunting accidents,

police shooting violent offenders, etc.

This type of distortion is a big part of the problem with their arguments. Reading the article the OP linked critically this becomes totally obvious.

The article states that there have been (or will be) approximately the same number of Americans who will "die by household firearms in 2015" as there were killed by terrorists in 2001 - the year of the 9/11 attacks. Then they further state...

For every time a household gun is used legally in self-defense, there are four unintentional shootings, seven assaults or murders, and 11 attempted or completed suicides-by-firearm

Just the fact that by their own numbers ELEVEN of every 23 people "killed by household firearms" are suicides shows how skewed their numbers, and their statements about them are. Nearly half of these folks "killed by household firearms" in fact killed themselves.

While it may be true that firearms are the single most common method of suicide, firearms still accounted for less than half of all suicides. This clearly shows that that if a person is suicidal and a gun isn't available they will find another means. Hanging is the second most common cause, and results in nearly 80% as many deaths, and is far more difficult to prevent or even guard against than suicide by firearms. In fact short of a straight jacket or padded cell there is no way to prevent a suicidal person from hanging themselves.

They also state that for every 1 self defensive use of a firearm, there are 22 other types of shootings. They have to only be counting actual self defense shootings. They can't possibly be counting the number of non-fatal self defense shootings there are, or how many times the mere presence of a self defensive firearm deters the criminal. Many reliable sources estimate that number at 500 thousand to 2.5 MILLION instances per year. 22 times those numbers would mean that there would have to be 11 - 55 million shootings in American homes per year. Not 34,000.

So basically they are skewing AND cherry-picking which statistical "facts" they want to present. But this is typical since the ends justify the means for these types. They don't care what kind of lies they have to tell, as long as they accomplish their goals.

 

[Big Cholla]

Your son was taught to 'reason' by lefties from grade school thru college. He does't 'know what he doesn't know.' I have to think that 'owning a gun' can only be a valid answer IF one lumps that in with that 'knows how to shoot safely and accurately'. Given that I have started the turn around in 'private ownership of guns is bad' thinking people to 'private ownership of guns is good' people by simply introducing them to the logical analysis of problem solving by the "Pro and Con" method......... Take a large paper tablet and write the problem in concise terms at the top; state a proposed solution to the problem in concise terms; draw a line under; draw a line vertically in the middle of the sheet; label one side pro and one side con. Now comes the mental exercise that requires some honesty. Start writing out the possible pros to the above statements and the possible cons to the above statements. Usually, by the time a page is filled, the answer (at that time and under present circimstances) becomes clear to all but a fanatic who can't bring themselves to break from fixed mantra beliefs.

Example: Problem; I have to walk my children to our parked car after the movie and it is going to be dark. How do I insure their safety in a questionable neighborhood? Solution, have a Policeman escort us.

Restatement of problem/solution: ........Solution, have a handgun concealed and be skillful with it. .......... Work thru those two proposals and see what jumps to the logical solution forefront.

If you are a skillful user of your mind and memory, all this can be done verbally. I hope you get the gist of this theme. I tried as best I can to present it in under 200 words when it is really a 2 credit, semester long Engineering class. ................. Good luck. ............

 

[jag312]

How old was your son when you introduced him to the shooting sports? My son started seeing and handling, but not shooting, my guns when he was 6. He got a pellet gun when he was 7. He got a single shot .22 when he was 8. He got a Ruger 1022 when he was 9. An anti-gunner can try to convince my son that guns are bad, he can talk until he is blue in the face, but nobody is going to convince my son that guns are bad.

If you didn't start your son early enough and nurture his interest over the years, then there may not be much that can be done at this time.

 

[PatriotX]

It's interesting how you appear to lay the blame for the differences between you two at the feet of all the outside influences in your son's life.

Have you thought for a moment that your adult son may simply have a different opinion about certain things than you do ?

 

[Watchdog]

I have to agree with Watchdog and chuckster...

It's nice to be agreed with, but after giving it a good bit of thought, I've removed my original reply to the OP. Apologies to the members who took the trouble to read my comments and hit the "Like" button.

This is not a 2A-related issue, and it's my opinion it shouldn't even be in this section of the forum.

The OP should bear in mind that although the Second Amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms, in no way does it require anyone to do so.

 

[Smithpride]

Some people are 'gun' people and others are not.
Another old saying: Those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still.

He will now have to come to his own conclusions that he wants to employ firearms into his life. Some things that may help:
Walk him through disturbing scenarios where the police are far away or may not come at all.
Encourage him and spouse to go to a NRA familiarization class to gain comfort.
Invite him to the gun range and walk him through your firearms.
Suggest a concealed class, even if he never intends to carry, just to become more comfortable with terms/laws/scenarios that may be presented in his life.

These are but a few of the things one could do. You could also start by donating or buying him an inexpensive .22 rifle to 'plink' with when he feels like shooting and see if it grows on him.

The problem is if you two are 'debating' then you have one side and he has another. Very rarely is this productive in getting someone to change their viewpoints.

 

[chaparrito]

He is your son. You've done your best and now he's a grownup. I would not allow ANY societal issue, not even the gun debate to come between me and my children. Seek agreement to disagree or you risk driving a wedge between you and your boy.

 

[Marshwheeling]

"Son, guns are a fact of life in this country. Now, do you want the people you disagree with politically to be the only ones who have guns, or do you think that you should be armed as well?"

 

[jarhead1178]

Don't preach to the choir.

 

[WuzzFuzz]

Hmmm....Reading and re-reading your first sentence UGlide, what do you want to save your son from? A view point different than yours?

Personally, my daughters sure don't think or act like I did, or do. And that's ok. We've learned to accept each other as we are. How they've chosen to live their lives, really doesn't affect how I live mine.

Long ago, I learned not to live my life thru my children.


WuzzFuzz

 

[BAM-BAM]

He sends you stuff to read........so.......Send him Lotts book(s) ........ get him to agree to read it/them to get a view of both sides of the arguments........

I watch "Morning Joe" on MSNBC....... just to learn how the other side thinks ...... and what and why they believe what they do.

Remember views change as we age and the responsibility of raising kids is added to the mix.

Remind him "stats" are compiled by folks who want to prove a point..... very few are just stats.........look at the term "Mass Shooting"...... any event where 4 or more people are shot..........the term is "a stew" of shooting related to drugs, gangs, terrorists, "work place violence" and crazy people going off the deep end.

In 2003/4 IIRC one of the main reasons the "Assault weapons ban" was not renewed is that there were so few examples of long guns being used in shootings.

 

[Beemerguy53]

I find that logic always effectively counters the anti-gun extremists, provided they can set aside their emotions (which are the basis for support for gun control) and look at this issue logically. For example...

Do I have the right, as a human being, to defend myself and my family should the need arise? (The only possible answer is "of course".) If so, then I must have the right to own the tools I would need to effect that defense. To acknowledge my right to defend myself, while denying me access to firearms, is like acknowledging the right to free speech, but telling me I have no right to own a computer, or a fax machine, or a telephone.

An even more powerful philosophical argument in support of gun rights is that we have a moral and civil obligation to defend ourselves, and that we cannot delegate away that obligation to agents of the state (i.e. the police), as the anti-gun extremists would like to do. One of the most powerful and articulate arguments I have ever read in support of gun rights is Jeffrey Snyder's essay "A Nation of Cowards". I would strongly suggest you forward it to your son and ask him to read it...

A Nation of Cowards