Shotguns and ammo for home defense
- Thread starter CraigG58
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hangnoose
Member
HOME DEFENSE SHOTGUNS/AMMO
First lets dispense with some of the myths & Hollywood BS.
1 unless you live in a castle 10 yards/30 feet would be a long shot.
2 What type (if any) pattern do you think you would get at 10 feet,20 feet, 30 feet, LITTLE IF ANY, so if the pattern does not open up the BG would be hit (if you don't miss) with the full wt/mass of the charge regardless of the shot size.
3 "YOU CAN'T MISS WITH A SHOTGUN AT CLOSE RANGE" this is complete nonsense. Fear, surging adrenalin, poor lighting, shooting from the hip with a pistol grip, or worse shooting from the shoulder with a hard plastic pistol grip (like the Mossberg) with a 12 gauge & heavy load would give many woman & some men a face full of receiver on the first shot & be lucky to still be holding the shotgun for a second shot. +1 for a 20 gauge & full stock (or a youth size). Those scenes in TV shows & movies where a BG shoots thru a door at 5-6 feet & blows a hole in the door big enough to stick your head thru, come on
, the hole would be more on the order of 1".
4 The sound of the pump action cycling would scare anyone away. More rubbish, aside from giving away your position & any element of surprise. How much more effective would the sound of a gunshot in their direction be?
A few things to consider: for home defense, really need an extended magazine? After 5 shots I kinda doubt you would still be alive & need those few extra rounds. Add on's like some of the extended mags/ pistol grips, extendable stocks may prevent doing a field strip of the gun without first removing said add on's, with tools required. How often do you overhear a guy walking into a gun store & asking for a 12 gauge pistol gripped shotgun for his wife/girlfriend, for home defense, who is 5 foot nothing and 100 pounds soaking wet, AND give me a few boxes of 3" oo buck too? The goal for me & having no kids would be to stop the attack with the first shot & never need a second shot, NOT, let's start wit 8's & work up as needed, you very well may only get 1 shot. That said I just recently bought a Mossy 590 12 gauge mariner finish 8+1 shot with a 20" cylinder choke used for 300$, cuz it was there & I prefer the metal parts of the 590 vs the 500, but would have been more pleased with a REM 870 Wingmaster with blue & wood. Who knows, in the future extended mags may be illegal & thank goodness it didn't have an evil bayonet lug.
First lets dispense with some of the myths & Hollywood BS.
1 unless you live in a castle 10 yards/30 feet would be a long shot.
2 What type (if any) pattern do you think you would get at 10 feet,20 feet, 30 feet, LITTLE IF ANY, so if the pattern does not open up the BG would be hit (if you don't miss) with the full wt/mass of the charge regardless of the shot size.
3 "YOU CAN'T MISS WITH A SHOTGUN AT CLOSE RANGE" this is complete nonsense. Fear, surging adrenalin, poor lighting, shooting from the hip with a pistol grip, or worse shooting from the shoulder with a hard plastic pistol grip (like the Mossberg) with a 12 gauge & heavy load would give many woman & some men a face full of receiver on the first shot & be lucky to still be holding the shotgun for a second shot. +1 for a 20 gauge & full stock (or a youth size). Those scenes in TV shows & movies where a BG shoots thru a door at 5-6 feet & blows a hole in the door big enough to stick your head thru, come on
, the hole would be more on the order of 1".4 The sound of the pump action cycling would scare anyone away. More rubbish, aside from giving away your position & any element of surprise. How much more effective would the sound of a gunshot in their direction be?
A few things to consider: for home defense, really need an extended magazine? After 5 shots I kinda doubt you would still be alive & need those few extra rounds. Add on's like some of the extended mags/ pistol grips, extendable stocks may prevent doing a field strip of the gun without first removing said add on's, with tools required. How often do you overhear a guy walking into a gun store & asking for a 12 gauge pistol gripped shotgun for his wife/girlfriend, for home defense, who is 5 foot nothing and 100 pounds soaking wet, AND give me a few boxes of 3" oo buck too? The goal for me & having no kids would be to stop the attack with the first shot & never need a second shot, NOT, let's start wit 8's & work up as needed, you very well may only get 1 shot. That said I just recently bought a Mossy 590 12 gauge mariner finish 8+1 shot with a 20" cylinder choke used for 300$, cuz it was there & I prefer the metal parts of the 590 vs the 500, but would have been more pleased with a REM 870 Wingmaster with blue & wood. Who knows, in the future extended mags may be illegal & thank goodness it didn't have an evil bayonet lug.
At close range its not the bird shot that is wicked but the wad and plastic shot sleeve.
Ross3914
Member
We're dealing in feet here for range. A few feet, because you are inside a house. The longest shot I'd have in my house is down the hall and is 20 feet or so.
20 feet. Think about that and self-defense. The 21ft rule doesn't magically disappear because you are in your house. You need to stop that attacker immediately. Anything less than a "full-stop" and he will be able to close that distance and kill you, even if he only has a knife or even a pipe.
I'd get away from the idea that you are going to be able to make up for less effective birdshot by capacity. You likely aren't going to get more than a couple shots off. Planning on making birdshot more effective by shooting the guy five times may need a rethink IMO.
The first round is quite possibly, even quite likely, the only one you will fire. It needs to be the most lethal round you can deliver. You need to get the gunfight over as fast as possible. The down-range danger may be mitigated by the far fewer number or rounds flying through the air, and the shorter duration of the gunfight.
I go with 00 buck straight through. I have an Ithaca 37, 18 1/2" barrel with a Trijicon front sight. I chose the night sight because it's a dedicated HD gun and the inside of a house can be pretty dark at night. I don't have a dedicated light on it, yet, simply because I haven't gotten around to it. It should have one.
If you are going to insist on using birdshot, then go with the first round only, and follow it with 00 or slugs. Once the shooting starts, frankly, overpenetration is the least of your worries.
20 feet. Think about that and self-defense. The 21ft rule doesn't magically disappear because you are in your house. You need to stop that attacker immediately. Anything less than a "full-stop" and he will be able to close that distance and kill you, even if he only has a knife or even a pipe.
I'd get away from the idea that you are going to be able to make up for less effective birdshot by capacity. You likely aren't going to get more than a couple shots off. Planning on making birdshot more effective by shooting the guy five times may need a rethink IMO.
The first round is quite possibly, even quite likely, the only one you will fire. It needs to be the most lethal round you can deliver. You need to get the gunfight over as fast as possible. The down-range danger may be mitigated by the far fewer number or rounds flying through the air, and the shorter duration of the gunfight.
I go with 00 buck straight through. I have an Ithaca 37, 18 1/2" barrel with a Trijicon front sight. I chose the night sight because it's a dedicated HD gun and the inside of a house can be pretty dark at night. I don't have a dedicated light on it, yet, simply because I haven't gotten around to it. It should have one.
If you are going to insist on using birdshot, then go with the first round only, and follow it with 00 or slugs. Once the shooting starts, frankly, overpenetration is the least of your worries.
(I didn't come up with that DD357
Member
Bird shot is a horrible choice, as has been stated and with a link to the whole issue given, it shouldn't even be considered. I much prefer a short barrelled AR15 type weapon for a long gun. Easier to control, faster on a second shot. Now let's take care of 2 myth's: 1) handguns, shotgun's, rifles - the db level on all 3 are in the 150's so that's not an issue, 2) with a proper self defense load the penetration is very similar to a good handgun SD round. Also, with a proper sling and training weapon retention is excellent. The only reason I see to use a shotgun over one is cost (which is a valid reason)
bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
It's all about Muzzle Energy for me. I already own and stock ammo for an array of weapons, so cost is moot. My 12ga delivers much more energy than anything else that's practical.
old&slow
Member
I'm not an expert ,, nor do I play one on TV. But, I have been hunting or shooting competition for about 50 years.
If I was really concerned with over penetration for home defense I would have 3 3/4 dram, 1 1/4 oz. #4 shot loaded in my shotgun.
Even with an IC choke, at 20 feet that's a 546 gr ball of shot about the size of a tennis ball.
I figure whatever is on the wrong end of that, probably doesn't want to play anymore.
( heck, hit someone in the chest with a tennis ball going 1200 fps ,, 818 mph, and I'll bet they don't want to play anymore..
)
Since I'm not concrened with over penetration , I have four #4 buck, then three #00 buck loaded.
( a handgun is usually closer to me than the shotgun )
The max. distance I could possibly have in my house would be about 40 feet. 20 feet or less would be more realistic. Since I live in the country, distance outside could be much greater.
I don't even use #8's for sporting clays,, I prefer #7.5's
If I was really concerned with over penetration for home defense I would have 3 3/4 dram, 1 1/4 oz. #4 shot loaded in my shotgun.
Even with an IC choke, at 20 feet that's a 546 gr ball of shot about the size of a tennis ball.
I figure whatever is on the wrong end of that, probably doesn't want to play anymore.
( heck, hit someone in the chest with a tennis ball going 1200 fps ,, 818 mph, and I'll bet they don't want to play anymore..
)Since I'm not concrened with over penetration , I have four #4 buck, then three #00 buck loaded.
( a handgun is usually closer to me than the shotgun )
The max. distance I could possibly have in my house would be about 40 feet. 20 feet or less would be more realistic. Since I live in the country, distance outside could be much greater.
I don't even use #8's for sporting clays,, I prefer #7.5's
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DD357
Member
bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
A page of links, while potentially useful, is posted why? Would you care to make a point? Are you intimating that 12ga is ineffective?
Older 870 with 00 and skeet barrel. Just the two of us and the four legged alarm system. I like the idea of wall penetration if I know who is on the other side. Additionally I have a plan, the practice, confidence, and mindset.
You are right that an SBR is more maneuverable than a full length gun, but I'd argue you are dead wrong on faster follow ups. A longer barrel reduces muzzle blast, and the longer heavier gun absorbs recoil and stabilizes the weapon during firing, making it easier to control. Properly handled, an M-16 can handle rapid fire far better than an M4 with all other parts and factors in play. Sawing off the barrel makes it easier to move around with, but it comes with a whole host of disadvantages. It may be better to move around a small area, but once you are on target, its easier to stay on target with the bigger gun, and easier to lay down effective fire.
Also, consider that the .223 loses a lot of its terminal performance as the barrel is shortened. As velocity and energy are lost, so does terminal performance. You end up firing a big blasty round that delivers only a fraction of its potential killing power. At some point, you don't have the kind of killing round you would prefer, and it will eventually be less effective. At 11 inches and less, some of the performance is that or less than a magnum handgun round, far less than the medium rifle power that 18 inches could give you, and far less likely to stop an attack in one shot. Yes, the SBR and carbines have a place in CQB, but remember it has drawbacks, it is not perfectly better than the rifle.
Besides cost, the shotgun is shot for shot more effective than the .223 in best conditions, and certainly superior against the performance of a short barrel 223. The shotgun may not have the kind of knock down power it has the movies, it does deliver a kind of shock to the body due to its heavy load weight, and has dropped people to the ground in fights. It hits the body hard enough that even the numbest and drugged up will know it hits them, and stuns those hit. Most of all, with buckshot and slugs, it can cause massive permanent damage tracks that are, well, extremely lethal and effective in stopping attackers. It may not be a super fast hydrostatic shock super bullet, but it is the example of how slow, dumb, and heavy can be effective.
The shotgun is often hand operated, not automatic, meaning it is more reliable. User error can be worse in auto loaders, if someone in the middle of the night waking up from sleep, or nervous, doesn't make sure the weapon is in battery, doesn't rack the weapon to get it into battery. In the event there isn't enough time for follow up shots, situations where only one shot can be obtained, which can take place in real life self defense for civilians, the shotgun is the hands down winner, because it is the most likely to end the fight. In the world of civilian self defense, which are not LEO or military fire fights, the lack of high capacity and quick follow ups are not as advantageous.
As for costs, not only are worthy shotguns cheaper than garbage grade combat auto loaders, SBR's require a tax stamp that costs even more. That SBR would really appreciate a suppressor, and you could be adding a lot more to the bill.
I'm not disagreeing with you completely, but I think there are serious flaws in the "only reason is cost' comment.
Comrad
Member
I'm pretty sure hitting the lottery is more likely than firing a shotgun for defense inside the home.
Out of curiosity, how does the bad guy even get inside a well secured residence?
Out of curiosity, how does the bad guy even get inside a well secured residence?
There a number of ways and don't assume home invasions only happen at night. Nearly half of them now occur during the day.
WILSON DEFENSE JOURNAL: Home Invasion's caught on camera
REM 3200
US Veteran
I don't know all the details but they do seem to do it.
Home invasions
and breaking and entering 
are two that come to mind.
Doug M.
Member
Gary Roberts is by far the leading SME in the field of terminal ballistics, the successor to Dr. Fackler. Nyeti is the same guy who posts under that screen name, and he has very serious BTDT creds.
12 gauge shotgun loads for LE duty use | Lightfighter Tactical Forum
Civilian shotgun - slug v. buck? | Lightfighter Tactical Forum
Buckshot effectiveness at 25 yds? | Lightfighter Tactical Forum
I prefer slugs for most LE uses, because of dealing with cars, but my 590 is loaded with 000 for in the house; I have had it far longer than the Flite Control #1 load has existed. Except when I am some silly place, I prefer an AR in the car. When I had to go to CA this summer for a gathering, the AR and some other ordinary tools stayed with a friend in Reno; the 590 came with me.
12 gauge shotgun loads for LE duty use | Lightfighter Tactical Forum
Civilian shotgun - slug v. buck? | Lightfighter Tactical Forum
Buckshot effectiveness at 25 yds? | Lightfighter Tactical Forum
I prefer slugs for most LE uses, because of dealing with cars, but my 590 is loaded with 000 for in the house; I have had it far longer than the Flite Control #1 load has existed. Except when I am some silly place, I prefer an AR in the car. When I had to go to CA this summer for a gathering, the AR and some other ordinary tools stayed with a friend in Reno; the 590 came with me.
Whitwabit
US Veteran
When my children were still at home I never thought the shotgun was a viable defensive home weapon . Leo friend told me with a shotgun if BG got to one of your children holding them captive with a shotgun you are taken out of the defensive situation because you would never shoot it toward your own child . Where with a pistol a head shot would be able to be accomplished with out injuring your child ..
If everyone in the home is in your bedroom it is a very good defensive weapon ..
So whether it is or isn't is all according to the situation in your home !!
If everyone in the home is in your bedroom it is a very good defensive weapon ..
So whether it is or isn't is all according to the situation in your home !!
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There's been a lot of ink spilled over this topic, so I doubt I can add much to change anyone's mind. People are generally pretty steadfast in their beliefs regarding their self defense theories. All I'll say is that anyone who'd like to volunteer to stand in front of a load or two of well placed #8's or a couple of .22 Short rounds in the 10 ring and then try to continue the fight is welcome to do so . . .
The objective is to stop them, not annoy them.
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