OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Not sure what you're asking Phil?
Long distance shooting?
- Thread starter Rastoff
- Start date
I have a few reasons, but they would not be shared by many. I know that it would be preferable to develop loads at 200 and 300 yards. However, being disabled, I try to keep my shooting sessions fun and painless. Prior to my last surgery in September, standing and walking were extremely painful. I could walk maybe 15 yards before I had to stop and rest. My ACL, PCL, and LCL were destroyed and needed to be replaced. When I walked, it felt like a dozen double edged razor blades on edge in my knee. This last surgery was worth being on the table for 11 hours.
My other reason is actually rather practical. I have a confirmed table of elevation corrections for each of my F class rifles. In the event that the scopes get jarred prior to a match, or they need to visit an armorers van for repairs, I can generally get to a 100 yard range to confirm my zero.
Plus, I "cheat" when I do my load development. I take a sheet of 1/4" grid paper and put 4 or 5 1" shoot-n-c pasters on the paper that I use as my aiming reference point. My testing goal is to keep each 3-5 shot group within a 2-3 grid square area, focusing more on my vertical dispersion than the horizontal dispersion. I find that if my loads perform as expected at 100 yards, they generally perform as desired at distance.
sgtsandman
US Veteran
This isn't a .308 AR but pretty darn impressive. A pretty much stock Remington 700 in .308 Winchester shooting a milk jug at 1500 yards.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X232rB_Cj8g&feature=iv&src_vid=36XhNfFKmEs&annotation_id=annotation_2910469233[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X232rB_Cj8g&feature=iv&src_vid=36XhNfFKmEs&annotation_id=annotation_2910469233[/ame]
sgtsandman
US Veteran
And here is an AR-10 at 1000 yards.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8kGbK5CgR0[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8kGbK5CgR0[/ame]
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Oh no, you don't get to back out now. If I'm going to us an 18" barrel, you need to share your reasons. Even if they're not conventional, I still want to hear it.
I'm a big fan of trust but verify. I listen to all suggestions. I'll try those that make sense and keep what works for me. So, yeah, I want to hear it. Who knows, maybe I'll use your technique.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
I forgot this before.
This is my bipod for the moment:
Yeah, it's low-tech, but very stable.
ChattanoogaPhil
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For distance precision paper punching what difference does the zero make as long as you know what it is? I can zero my .308 at any distance, 100 150 200..... whatever. But as long as I know what the zero is, sight to bore, muzzle velocity and the distance I'm currently shooting at... 300 400 500 600.... whatever. I just dial it in with the scope. In contrast, for a general hunting gun in the woods a specific zero wouldbe considered for point and click shooting.
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Long story short, the guys that shoot 1000 yds do not use an AR10 platform. The gun was not made for that.
The military, who has shot a few more than me, lists max effective range at around 600 yds. for a M110 which is their sniper support weapon.
The guys that shoot beyond that have better stuff than you, and they also live on a different planet. They do not speak ghetto trash.
For the price of a MP10, you can buy a Savage in 338 Lapua!
The military, who has shot a few more than me, lists max effective range at around 600 yds. for a M110 which is their sniper support weapon.
The guys that shoot beyond that have better stuff than you, and they also live on a different planet. They do not speak ghetto trash.
For the price of a MP10, you can buy a Savage in 338 Lapua!
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Really? Just what do I have? And, I'm not concerned with aliens. I like to keep my feet firmly planted on Earth.
Who exactly is speaking "ghetto trash"? Besides you that is. I've been nothing but respectful here.
Yeah and you can pay $5/round to shoot it too. The cost of the rifle is insignificant compared to the cost of the ammo if you actually get out and shoot. I was considering a rifle in .300Win Mag, but .308Win is a lot less expensive both in dollars and felt recoil.
So, what do you use? Considering your expertise, I'm very interested to hear what combination you use.
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I wasn't backing out of explaining. The two major reasons that I establish a solid 100 yard zero are:
1. My leg injuries make a hike beyond 100 yards almost unbearable, and between pasting or replacing targets, it becomes overwhelming.
2. Should I ever encounter en route damage and have to visit an armorers van, I can generally gain access to a 100 yard range to confirm my zero.
With the charts that I keep, and my zeros, I can dial in whatever distance I am at, since I shoot on KD ranges. Additionally, I now count down from my 100 yard zero until my elevation dial bottoms out, so I can reestablish my 100 yard zero.
I agree, the AR platform was not designed for 1000 yard shooting. That said, I would suggest that you might consider visiting Camp Perry during the long range matches. For each of the past 3 years, I have seen members of the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Marine Corps Rifle Team using Mk110s on the 1000 yard line, doing quite well.
Yes, I am building an AR platform in 223 for 1000 yards, and this is motivated by physical injuries. Yes, I know that I am handicapping myself, but it allows me to return to a sport that I love. Yes, I could probably use a 338 Lapua at 1000 yards (under existing rules), but line etiquette would discourage that, plus the cost of that ammo discourages significant amounts of practice. Additionally, what is the target accuracy life of a 338 Lapua barrel versus the hunting accuracy life?
Sometimes, you just have to make due with what you have.
@Rastoff,
About this time last year, I was having difficulty getting my Remington 700 in 308 to group well at the 1000 yard line. I managed to get a good deal on a Remington 700 Long Range in 7mm Remington Magnum. The recoil sensation was a bit more than a 30-06, but significantly less than a 300 Win Mag. Match accuracy barrel life should be between 1200 and 1500 rounds.
I ultimately discovered that Remington's quality control has fallen. I discovered that the 700 Long Range left the factory with an extremely rough chamber, that required the assistance of a 2x4 to extract the first hundred rounds or so. After that experience, I guaged the throat of the 308, and discovered a very long leade was being used at Remington. I now have to load my 308s about 0.040" long to get acceptable accuracy.
I strongly suggest that you keep a small notebook tracking the number of rounds you put through your rifle, so you can track the barrel's accuracy life. It will help you to determine when you have to replace the barrel.
About this time last year, I was having difficulty getting my Remington 700 in 308 to group well at the 1000 yard line. I managed to get a good deal on a Remington 700 Long Range in 7mm Remington Magnum. The recoil sensation was a bit more than a 30-06, but significantly less than a 300 Win Mag. Match accuracy barrel life should be between 1200 and 1500 rounds.
I ultimately discovered that Remington's quality control has fallen. I discovered that the 700 Long Range left the factory with an extremely rough chamber, that required the assistance of a 2x4 to extract the first hundred rounds or so. After that experience, I guaged the throat of the 308, and discovered a very long leade was being used at Remington. I now have to load my 308s about 0.040" long to get acceptable accuracy.
I strongly suggest that you keep a small notebook tracking the number of rounds you put through your rifle, so you can track the barrel's accuracy life. It will help you to determine when you have to replace the barrel.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
I'm way ahead of you brother. I already keep track of every round through every gun I own. For example: I have 15,163 rounds through my favorite Trap gun. Of course it's a shotgun so, I don't have to worry about wearing out the barrel.
To aid in the learning process, I intend on keeping accurate records of my rifle shooting to evaluate every outing. I can take pictures of the targets and analyze the groups with software. Some say this is going overboard. Meh, it's just how I'm built.
I apologize. I thought you might have something more toward the mechanics of shooting. I understand your physical limitations. At my local range we can drive to the target boards to set/examine the targets. The only drawback is the longest target is 300 yards.
Unless you are just banging Buick-sized steel at distances of 1000 yards (or thereabouts) a gas-driven .308 is going to find it hard to be competitive.
Yes, a .308 gas gun will fling lead 1000 yards with a fair degree of accuracy.
Fair.
If you want PRECISE, you need to make a different selection.
Yes, a .308 gas gun will fling lead 1000 yards with a fair degree of accuracy.
Fair.
If you want PRECISE, you need to make a different selection.
Rastoff, don't take me all wrong here. What I am saying it that it seems to me that most the guys that shoot that class are elitists. They drop more on glass than my whole rig and another costs! Very specialized hand loaded ammo tuned to the gun. Gotta clean the bore every few shots, yada, yada yada.
It is a science into itself. It is not for me.
If I was going to push a .308, I would just buy a Savage heavy with a Mc millan stock. They just work, otherwise a different caliber.
I think you can get decent glass under a grand in a couple of cases nowadays.
I do not even want to packmule the rig around, just too much.
I like to shoot more and work less. Put them away dirty and maybe spend time drinking beer!
I have a cheap AR that cuts the best group my 10 has done in half. Still working on custom loads for the 10, but it is down the ladder on the fun list.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Not picking on you W.E.G., but this is a common statement.
So, why is this? I mean, there's a lot that goes into accuracy, but why can't a gas gun be as accurate as a bolt gun?
Rastoff,
Historically, semi-auto rifles have been a degree less accurate than bolt guns. The reason is usually attributed to the fact that gas is bled off to operate the action, and the action cycles before the bullet leaves the barrel. That is a major reason why there are two divisions in high power rifle competitions: service rifle and match rifle. These divisions are offered in virtually every NRA match.
This is not to say that service rifles are inaccurate. Match tuned M14s and M1As (and now ARs) tend to dominate in NRA matches, except long range. Across the course, semi-autos have the advantage of magazine feed versus stripper clip reloads. In an 800 point aggregate for a long range match, a service rifle will typically fall 15-20 points behind the winning match rifle scores.
Historically, semi-auto rifles have been a degree less accurate than bolt guns. The reason is usually attributed to the fact that gas is bled off to operate the action, and the action cycles before the bullet leaves the barrel. That is a major reason why there are two divisions in high power rifle competitions: service rifle and match rifle. These divisions are offered in virtually every NRA match.
This is not to say that service rifles are inaccurate. Match tuned M14s and M1As (and now ARs) tend to dominate in NRA matches, except long range. Across the course, semi-autos have the advantage of magazine feed versus stripper clip reloads. In an 800 point aggregate for a long range match, a service rifle will typically fall 15-20 points behind the winning match rifle scores.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Specifically, which DPMS did you purchase?
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
I did not buy a DPMS. I bought a DPMS pattern lower.
The AR10 or LR308 is not a "standardized" rifle like the AR15. Consequently, not all AR style lowers/uppers will fit with each other.
I will post all the details once it shows up and I have it built.
Don't you just love a cliff hanger?
The AR10 or LR308 is not a "standardized" rifle like the AR15. Consequently, not all AR style lowers/uppers will fit with each other.
I will post all the details once it shows up and I have it built.
Don't you just love a cliff hanger?
jrabenius
Member
NRA long distance school using BOX STOCK S&W M&P 10's
Here is a good article I found showing the distance capabilities of the M&P 10. Notice that it mentions using decent glass: 4-14x40.
These are average shooters shooting BOX STOCK M&P 10's to 1000 yards using Hornady 168 grain Sierra Matchking, and 175 grain matchkings out to 1400 yards.
These are not match groups, but they are minute of man at 1000 yards. I think the plate they show is 15 x 15 inches.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/1000-yards-with-a-smith-wesson-mp-10/
This particular course is held at several NRA schools - Utah, Texas, and New Mexico. The cost is $2300, and covers lodging, meals, the use of rifle, and ammo.
Here is a good article I found showing the distance capabilities of the M&P 10. Notice that it mentions using decent glass: 4-14x40.
These are average shooters shooting BOX STOCK M&P 10's to 1000 yards using Hornady 168 grain Sierra Matchking, and 175 grain matchkings out to 1400 yards.
These are not match groups, but they are minute of man at 1000 yards. I think the plate they show is 15 x 15 inches.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/1000-yards-with-a-smith-wesson-mp-10/
This particular course is held at several NRA schools - Utah, Texas, and New Mexico. The cost is $2300, and covers lodging, meals, the use of rifle, and ammo.
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