Need schooling on Titegroup powder

[chief38]

I have been using Titegroup for almost as long as its been out in the market for .38/.357 and have NEVER had any issues. I go though a lot of .38 specials and Titegroup sure goes a long way.

I will not say that a double charge is absolutely an impossibility, but with my Dillon 650 and the type of powder charging system it uses I will say it's extremely unlikely I could get a double charge unless the ratchet that advance the shell plate were to break - and I would know that immediately.
Other than that, the machine automatically advances the shell plate on each pull of the operating handle. The powder drop system is just about fool proof and I don't see how a double charge could be dropped. There is also an audible powder check station & devise (for extra extra reassurance) option on this model should you choose to use it.

All that said, I feel Titegroup in a properly operating automatically advancing press is perfectly safe and very efficient. I also use it on occasion on my RCBS Rock Chucker when loading a few small runs of ammo for testing. The RCBS powder drop also does a pretty precise job and I have not had any issues with this press either. When using the Rock Chucker all cartridges are visually checked before the bullet head is placed on the case.

I also use W231 and see no huge difference in performance, powder weights or danger levels. Bullseye was my powder of choice for years and no issues with that either.

REMEMBER, shooting guns and reloading bullets are things that are inherently dangerous and one who participates MUST be fully attentive and have no distractions while doing so. While reloading I do NOT have a TV on and 99% of the time I am by myself so there is no chitter chatter. On the RARE occasion I do reload with a friend, he is assisting at a different bench, doing a separate task and we do not have any chit chat conversations while reloading. I want to remain 100% on task and focused. I do this no matter which powder I am using and it seems to work.

 

[Thomas15]

I believe that is is human nature to place the blame for a mishap, any mishap on something other than the individual involved. For example if I'm DQed at a match it is not my fault for breaking the 180 rule, it's the RSO or the stage planner.

Again a double charge is not good using any powder. It is interesting that some who advise using a fluffy powder that will make a double charge overflow the case will also poo poo the use of a powder cop or lock out die.

Amazing to me also that some will spend a whopping $30.00 on a tool that measures out powder and the same for a scale then complain that their powder measure doesn't drop consistent loads of (_______ insert some powder usually an extruded or flake) or their scale drifts.

I really believe that to some, handloading is a religion.

 

[Forrest r]

I believe that is is human nature to place the blame for a mishap, any mishap on something other than the individual involved.

Not my nature, I don't blame the powder in the least. Titegroup is an excellent powder, it just happens to be very unforgiving. But I will call it the darwin award of gun powders.

A nicely done video of a guy having his glock kaboom.

https://youtu.be/_q9O-wVfQ-s

At frame 1.48 he has a post stating that the 5 rounds left in the mag after the kaboom had "pronounced setback", his words not mine.

Then he does another video with an explanation of why the glock kaboomed.

https://youtu.be/u5oa3D4SDzs

He decided it was from the case that blew out and a crimp that left a small brass ring in the bbl. But if you look at the blown case, the rim is good. That ring was from the round before!!! The round that ko'd the glock was not fully chambered.

Then he goes on to tell everyone how to properly put neck tension on their reloads. If I just blew a gun up and all 5 of the remaining bullets had setback, I'd be asking for help. Not instructing others on how it's done.

Anyway another small sample in the wonderful world of reloading.

 

[daniel lawecki]

I have used Titegroup as the powder shortage in my area is still on. Bad rap won't say either way as this could go on for years. Anytime your in the reloading room care should always come first no matter what powder is used. As we all think we a pros and super safe and the masters of knowledge stuff happens so be safe. Take your time use a powder cop or alarm on those progressive press.

 

[fredj338]

I believe that is is human nature to place the blame for a mishap, any mishap on something other than the individual involved. For example if I'm DQed at a match it is not my fault for breaking the 180 rule, it's the RSO or the stage planner.

Again a double charge is not good using any powder. It is interesting that some who advise using a fluffy powder that will make a double charge overflow the case will also poo poo the use of a powder cop or lock out die.

Amazing to me also that some will spend a whopping $30.00 on a tool that measures out powder and the same for a scale then complain that their powder measure doesn't drop consistent loads of (_______ insert some powder usually an extruded or flake) or their scale drifts.

I really believe that to some, handloading is a religion.

Powder check dies are fine for progressives, but not everyone loads on one. I don't think anyone is blaming TG for blowing up a gun, but small vol charges contribute to it, thus it is less safe than a Pieter that fills the case better.

 

[SDot]

Tight group load volume

I've read just about everything i can find on medium velosity 9mm short barrel (shield) loads, and I find tons of positive information on Tightgroup. The only real negative I find is the higher potential of a double charge because the case fill is so low as compared to other powders. I use a progressive loader (550b) and I'm pretty careful, but I was just about to stop considering Tightgroup because of these concerns, but I decided to do some case fill comparisons with some of the most recommended powders.

I located the VMD values for the various powders and then put together the minimum loads for each of these same powders. I used this information to determine the 9mm case fill for each of the powders and doubled this fill to see what a double charge of these powders would look like.

The load i was comparing was for a 9mm 115grs LRN bullet. I couldn't find an exact bullet match for each powder, but I think I got close. I'm not planning to use these loads, just trying to get as close to apples to apples as I can.

9mm case volume = .84cc

Powders compared

ACCUR #2
VMD 0.0838
Charge, grains (x.x) 4.2
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.35
percentage of case a double charge would fill =84%

ACCUR #5
VMD 0.0623
Charge, grains (x.x) 5.2
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.32
percentage of case a double charge would fill =77%

ACCUR #7
VMD 0.0653
Charge, grains (x.x) 5.7
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.37
percentage of case a double charge would fill =89%

TITEGROUP
VMD 0.0848
Charge, grains (x.x) 3.9
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.33
percentage of case a double charge would fill =79%

WIN 231
VMD 0.0931
Charge, grains (x.x) 4.3
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.40
percentage of case a double charge would fill =95%

WSUPER-FLD
VMD 0.084
Charge, grains (x.x) 4.9
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.41
percentage of case a double charge would fill =98%

WSUPER-TAR
VMD 0.1205
Charge, grains (x.x) 3.2
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.39
percentage of case a double charge would fill =92%

These numbers should only be considered approximate, and while they do show Tightgroup's fill level is lower than most, it is only 19% less than the least dense powder (WSF) and actually averages about 10% less than all of the other compared.

Given that a double charge of a minimum load of Tightgroup would still fill almost 80% of the case, i think it would be easy to notice for anyone looking.

Smaller deviations from the desired load, no so much.

What am i missing?

Sam

 

[Carrier]

Sdot best post on Tightgroup yet.

 

[venomballistics]

I've read just about everything i can find on medium velosity 9mm short barrel (shield) loads, and I find tons of positive information on Tightgroup. The only real negative I find is the higher potential of a double charge because the case fill is so low as compared to other powders. I use a progressive loader (550b) and I'm pretty careful, but I was just about to stop considering Tightgroup because of these concerns, but I decided to do some case fill comparisons with some of the most recommended powders.

I located the VMD values for the various powders and then put together the minimum loads for each of these same powders. I used this information to determine the 9mm case fill for each of the powders and doubled this fill to see what a double charge of these powders would look like.

The load i was comparing was for a 9mm 115grs LRN bullet. I couldn't find an exact bullet match for each powder, but I think I got close. I'm not planning to use these loads, just trying to get as close to apples to apples as I can.

9mm case volume = .84cc

Powders compared

ACCUR #2
VMD 0.0838
Charge, grains (x.x) 4.2
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.35
percentage of case a double charge would fill =84%

ACCUR #5
VMD 0.0623
Charge, grains (x.x) 5.2
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.32
percentage of case a double charge would fill =77%

ACCUR #7
VMD 0.0653
Charge, grains (x.x) 5.7
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.37
percentage of case a double charge would fill =89%

TITEGROUP
VMD 0.0848
Charge, grains (x.x) 3.9
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.33
percentage of case a double charge would fill =79%

WIN 231
VMD 0.0931
Charge, grains (x.x) 4.3
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.40
percentage of case a double charge would fill =95%

WSUPER-FLD
VMD 0.084
Charge, grains (x.x) 4.9
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.41
percentage of case a double charge would fill =98%

WSUPER-TAR
VMD 0.1205
Charge, grains (x.x) 3.2
Charge, cubic centimeters 0.39
percentage of case a double charge would fill =92%

These numbers should only be considered approximate, and while they do show Tightgroup's fill level is lower than most, it is only 19% less than the least dense powder (WSF) and actually averages about 10% less than all of the other compared.

Given that a double charge of a minimum load of Tightgroup would still fill almost 80% of the case, i think it would be easy to notice for anyone looking.

Smaller deviations from the desired load, no so much.

What am i missing?

Sam

your missing its 30 - 40% nitroglycerin content on top of the non linear nature of pressure build.

a half of a grain over due to an equipment glitch is possible.
with most powders, its forgiven. The result is a slightly warm round that would go unnoticed with most shooters.
TG is the closest powder to a blasting agent as we have on the shelf today. it will not forgive.

If you want to rain ammo from a progressive press, TG is probably not for you.
If you are a new reloader who might not really know if your scale is properly zeroed, its definitely not for you

 

[Will2]

Sdot, you missed nothing...

This is the same reason I use Bullseye, I can easily see a double charge in 9mm.

Will

 

[SDot]

So the issue isn't that i won't be able to tell when i have a double charge, it's that I won't be able to tell when / if there is a 1/2grain over charge, and that overcharge is dangerous. I get it now.

What powder doesn't have this problem, but is still a "fast" (for short barrel) powder. most of the fast powders I've looked at, also seem to be dense.

Sam

 

[ChiefStealth]

I checked the half grain over hypothesis. My normal load for 9mm, with TG, with 124gn bullets, is 3.8gn of TG. Half a grain over my normal load would put me at 0.2gn over max listed in my load data.
My normal load of Bullseye is 4.2gn. Half a grain over puts me at 0.2gn over max.
My normal load of W231 is also 4.2gn. Half a grain over is also 0.2gn over max.
My quick check indicates, to me, that a half grain over, of any of the faster pistol powders, would be over max charge. Not a whole lot, but still over. Would put the load into the +P range. Probably not enough to cause a KB. If I were loading at near max to begin with, plus that half grain error, then I could have a problem. But, it would be the same for all of those powders. I don't see how TG is any more, or less, likely to cause a KB, at half a grain over, than the other powders.

 

[rsrocket1]

If you are worried about a half grain inaccuracy when loading Titegroup, not only is Titegroup not for you, but reloading metallic cartridges is probably not for you. Titegroup is very fine powder and meters very well and does not bridge like big flake powder. The danger with Titegroup is inattentive loading that leads to a double charge which does not spill over the case.

Here's a pic of a double charge of 8.4g Titegroup vs. a double charge of 12g Unique in a 40 S&W case:

Titegroup does not go from squib to kaboom with a tenth of a grain of powder, it is fairly smooth when increasing loads by 0.1g but you have to know when to stop and just like with any other fast powder (Red Dot, Clays) you have to stop before going over max. Flattened primers and sticky bolts work with rifles, but handguns are typically maxed out at 35,000 psi, not 55,000 psi as with rifles.

I do see that Titegroup can leave scorched cases even when close to max loads. That might lead some to believe that the "sooty case" is way under pressure. In fact if you look closely, the case is darkened typically only on part of one side and the bottom is not. That means the gases are sealed off and the extractor is loosening the case from the chamber while combustion is still going on. It does not mean you still have a large margin to increase the charge.

I find that the high nitroglycerin content is no problem when shooting even at moderate rates (100 rounds in 20 minutes). It does stick to the bottom of powder coated bullets but that does not seem to affect the performance in the short term (I shoot all my reloads within a month or two, typically a lot less).

Here's a 50 day test of powders sitting on bullets nose down

Titegroup is a good powder in that it "just barely" meets the needs in most major handgun calibers (9 through 45ACP) from low to medium speeds, it also works well in 12 gauge shotgun loads (3/4 ounce to 1-1/8 ounce target loads, slugs and buckshot) and with low recoil rifle plinker rounds (~10 grains). The major hazard is high density and overpressure for people who don't know or ignore it's limitations and try to push a bullet too fast with it leaving no margin for safety.

The good thing about it is that 8 pounds will load a lot of handgun and/or shotgun rounds.

 

[rwsmith]

Target powders like Titegroup and Bullseye........

They are at their best with light target loads, but both powders can reach somewhat above medium levels, so I find them very useful except for magnum loads. Data is plentiful. Therefore I use these powders and just be extra careful in the powder throwing part of the loading sequence, weighing charges often and sometimes weighing every charge if I'm close to max. And I carefully examine the powder levels with a flashlight. It's more trouble but it beats losing a good gun.