38/44 Load developement ?'s

[Forrest r]

I'd do a little research on brian pearce's 2012 power pistol load. He was using a 158gr (ya I know, you're using 173gr) lead bullet and duplicated a safe p+ load that equaled the buffalo bore fbi load. He was getting 1000fps+ out of a 2" bbl'd snub nosed 38spl (ruger lcr) with a 6.8gr load of power pistol that tested out safe/within max saami pressures. I'm sure you would get allot more velocity from a longer bbl. Should put you in the 1200fps range your looking for.

i thought the original powder/load keith used for the 38/44 was 10.0gr of dupont's #80. Which is a pretty hot load considering the 1929 lyman handbook states for the 429421 44spl loads/bullet "4.0gr to 5.0gr of bullseye is extremely accurate. Mr. Keith also recommends 12.0gr of DuPont's #80 in the latest heat treated revolvers".

Keith tried 11.0gr of DuPont's #80 in the 38/44's. Sent some loads out to peter's cartridge co to be pressure tested. The 11.0gr #80 load came back at 42,000psi.

To duplicate the original factory loads:
358429 11.0gr 2400
358429 12.0gr 4227

 

[S&WIowegan]

I'm a long-time handloader and have used most of the powders you mention. I even have some of those Keith-style 173gr. LSWCs bought from Leadheads in Kansas.

I'll just share a few items I've learned. Starline brass is great stuff and I use both the 38 Special and 38 Special +P....the two are identical except for the headstamp. I realized it and called Starline and they confirmed they are the same. I use the +P for hotter loads and keep the brass separate.

I recently did a handloading series using HS6(Win 540 is same) in 38 Super. Mild to moderate loads of HS 6 left extreme amounts of black crud in my guns(I assume it's graphite) but full-power loads burned much cleaner.

Brian Pearce in Handloader likes hot loads, Venturino likes mild stuff.

Have fun!

 

[boatbum101]

First thing I did was look at both their loads . Other than Keith's Unique & 2400 loads , only saw the Power Pistol & H110 loads . I also cast the 358156 but save it for full power 357 mag loads . I plan to try HS-6 also . Forum member Peter M. Eick tried Power Pistol but stated he had pressure problems before reaching velocity he wanted . 800X has been a surprise as 7.5grs with the 173gr is a damn good load in my gun .

 

[alwslate]

12.0 grs of 2400 with the 173 gr bullet in 38 spl brass is pretty hot.
Lyman shows 13.5 grs in 357 brass at 41,100 CUP. Most likely you're
at .357 mag pressure levels. I don't believe factory 38/44 loads were
at these pressure levels. In his article on the 38/44 Brian worked up
to .357 pressure levels in his test revolver and said that he believed
the 38 spl HD and .357 magnums had the same heat treatment and
cyl strength. Maybe so as many have been rechambered for the .357
over the years. If you really want to run your revolver at these levels
then I don't think you'll find any medium burn rate powders that will
equal 2400's velocity although you could equal original 38/44 loads.
When Venturino pushed his 38/44 loads up beyond 12.0 grs or so the
cyl of his HD started falling open with every shot and he decided to
back down a little. I've got both magazines around here somewhere
so I'll try to find them and see exactly what the loads were.

 

[Forrest r]

First thing I did was look at both their loads . Other than Keith's Unique & 2400 loads , only saw the Power Pistol & H110 loads . I also cast the 358156 but save it for full power 357 mag loads . I plan to try HS-6 also . Forum member Peter M. Eick tried Power Pistol but stated he had pressure problems before reaching velocity he wanted . 800X has been a surprise as 7.5grs with the 173gr is a damn good load in my gun .

Interesting, I had no problem when I tested brian pearce's load in a charter arms undercover. It's hot but the cases fall out of the cylinders.

Any idea what/how he crimped his reloads? When you start playing around with high pressure rounds something as simple as the crimp can and will affect velocity. I'm talking 50fps+. I link to someone that is testing 33/44 loads and what they found.

Duplicating the 38/44 Super Police load. - THR

 

[boatbum101]

No I've no idea what his loading technique is . I do know from his past posts here he's shot quite a few of these type loads & has posted velocities & his results . Since he's been there , done that I'd love to talk with him . Unfortunately most of us have no real way of knowing what the chamber pressure of a load really is . My goal is to attempt to get 1100 - 1200 fps .

 

[ChuckS1]

IMR 4756 – still have some . I know this powder does not like to be crowded . Was thinking somewhere around 7.0grs with this bullet .

Ah, days of "The Load"... I had an Outdoorsman and as I recall, 7.0 grains of 4756 and a 158 grain LSWC was my max load. As in pierced primers with Winchester primers and flattened primers with Remington.

I would recommend against going that high with 4756.

 

[boatbum101]

Yes 4756 as always in my experience been a fine line between good & too damn hot . I figured on starting @ 6.0grs & working up . Moot point really as I've only 2lbs & chances of getting more are remote . I first plan on shooting my 12.0gr 2400 load over an Oehler 35P to see exactly what velocity & spreads I'm getting ( establish a baseline per say ) . If in excess of 1200fps , I'll tone it down . Ironic as I've shot that & the 358156 158gr GCSWC over 13.5grs 2400 ( crimped in lower crimp groove ) for years in the same gun .

 

[Tim357]

A while back I had a chance to chrono some high speed .38 Spl loads. Gun was a Ruger SP 101 3" and Model 686 Smith 4". Load was Lyman 357446, seated to and crimped in center groove. Powder was 12.5 gr 2400. Velocity was 1158 avg from Ruger, and 1219 avg from Smith. ES was 16, SD of 5. This load was Skeeter Skelton's load from the 70s, perhaps earlier. 10 grains 2400 was rather mundane. with the Lee 158 rnfp in same guns, same order, 888 avg, and 912 avg. For this level load, Power Pistol is a champ. 6 gr, same boolit gave 970 and 994fps.

 

[boatbum101]

Finally had a chance to get to the range . I shot the following over my Oehler 35P . All were using Fed +P cases , Fed 100 primers , Lyman 358429 bullets .
First up was my old 12.5grs of 2400 . WOW this was an eye opener for me as it's much hotter than I want to use in my gun . High was 1,367 fps , low was 1,256 fps , spread of 111 fps , mean vel was 1,315 fps , SD was 33 .
Next I shot 12.0 grs 2400 . This one is also hotter than I want . High was 1,336 fps , low was 1,218 fps , spread of 118 fps , mean vel was 1,287 fps & SD was 28 . Yup more than the 1150 - 1200 I want for sure .
Next I shot 7.0 grs SR-4756 . Accuracy was very good as was extraction & case heads . High was 1,184 fps , low was 1,108 fps , spread of 76 fps , mean vel of 1,141 fps & SD was 18 . This one's a keeper . Too bad it's been discontinued .
Next I tried 7.5 grs SR-4756 . Accuracy just wasn't there & extraction was sticky to the point on having to push extractor rod against the bench . High was 1,231 fps , low was 1,143 fps , spread of 88 fps , mean vel of 1,198 fps & SD again was 18 .
Ironic that loads I'd shot for years from this gun were that hot . Dang sure going to back the 2400 loads off to 10.5 - 11.0 grs & see how they work out .

 

[alwslate]

I was sure that your loads were hot and running pressures well above
your target level of less than 30,000 psi. Hodgdon Longshot is a good
powder for +P 38 spls and 357 loads that are just a step down from
the top velocities. You might want to check it out.

 

[Doc Hollywood]

I use the Ideal 358439 which is the hollow point version of your mold, I cast the bullets with a 95% lead 5% tin alloy and water quench. I size.358 and load with 10.5 grains N110 over a wspm primer then use a lee factory crimp die to crimp the **** out of it. Out of a 4" barrel I get an honest 1200-1250 fps with no flash or pressure signs, the cases eject effortlessly.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Do a search on my name. I did a fair amount of 38/44 testing along with several others. With the 173 LSWC, I load 7.0 grns of 4756 in my guns. With the 158 LSWC I use 7.5 grns of 4756 with the current lot I am using. I bought over 50 lbs of 4756 in one lot (7 8 lb jugs) so I am set and that is all I use in my 38/44s and 38 Supers. 7.5 grns with a 135 lrn in 38 Super gives me 1350 fps so it is good to go.

Work up your own load. These are not industry standard since there is no industry standard for the 38/44 and real 38 Super loads. Basically you are wildcatting it so good luck. Mine shoot great with 4756.

 

[boatbum101]

Thank you Sir . I have read your threads & it convinced me to get an Oehler 35P . That and the fact you've been there , done that also saved me some time & expense . Do you agree that 1150 - 1200 fps is the speed for these type loads ?

 

[ddixie884]

Great info and chrono data. Thanx to you all..........

 

[DWalt]

Note this thread dates from 4-1/2 years ago.

The old Lyman manuals recommended only 2400 and Unique for .38-44 loads. But back then, many propellants which are common today didn't exist. Long ago I made up some very good .38-44 loads using H240, but H240 no longer exists. It was reputed to have been very similar to H110.