Speer 135 grain Gold Dot 38 Sp+P and 357 Magnum

Cal44 said:
At 860 fps the 38+P load delivers 222 ft lbs.

At 990 fps the muzzle energy of the magnum load is 294 ft lbs.

That's nearly 1/3 more energy.

Could be significant. Also, the higher velocity makes the magnum version more likely to fully expand.

Is the magnum version worth the extra flash and recoil? -- that's the question IMO.
Click to expand...

Speer uses the same bullet in both and that 135gr bullet was specifically designed to expand at the lower velocities associated with a short barrel. The expansion of that bullet is not a factor since both generate more that 800 fps, the reported necessary velocity. That bullet expands like a perfect picture used to show what a mushroomed bullet looks like lol.
 
The Speer MGN in a 2 inch barrel produces about the same energy as the plus pee version in a 4 inch.
This seems worthwhile.

Best,
Rick
 
ArchAngelCD said:
Speer uses the same bullet in both and that 135gr bullet was specifically designed to expand at the lower velocities associated with a short barrel. The expansion of that bullet is not a factor since both generate more that 800 fps, the reported necessary velocity. That bullet expands like a perfect picture used to show what a mushroomed bullet looks like lol.
Click to expand...

I'd go with the mag load.

That 860 fps is MUZZLE vel. At 10 yards that's going to be down to 800 fps. Add in winter, say 30 degrees, and a couple of layers of clothing and you want as much muzzle energy as you can get.
 
I'm going to partially duplicate my post from another thread here, as it is relevant. The Speer short barrel 38 did not meet my expectations.
I'm posting last Friday's Speer 38 short barrel chrono results. In the interest of science, I've also ordered 357 135g short barrel to chrono and check recoil. I hope to do that tomorrow.

Temp was 36 degrees, but I kept the 10 rounds warm. I separated by weight, as there was a range of about 209-210 grains. I did 5 light and 5 heavier rounds separately. The light ones averaged 806 FPS and the heavy ones 826 FPS, for overall avg 816 FPS. Top speed was 840 and low speed was 760,each from one of the lighter rounds. The spread on the heavier rounds was only 29 FPS, 806 to 835.

Speer advertises this bullet as opening fully at 860 FPS, and that it averaged 863 FPS out of a 2" vented barrel, or a model 640 2.125" barrel, depending on which of their data sheets you are looking at. I presume 860 is where you get reliable expansion, and below that is hit or miss. My 340 has a 1.875" barrel, as do the models 642/442. This link <b>.38spl: Hornady FTX vs. Speer 135gr GDHP vs. CorBon 110gr DPX</b> reports to be testing out of a 1.875" barrel, and neither the old nor the new Speer short barrel load made 860FPS. Additionally, the round making speed in the low 800 FPS range failed to expand properly in the denim test. Photos of the failed Speer round were included at the very bottom. They listed the round as stock# 53121 instead of #53921, the stock number for the SB 135g round. That must be a typo, since the 135g only shows up in the SB round.

I have a problem with the results here as I don't believe the bullet will expand reliably/properly under 860 FPS and I've taken it up with Speer. I'm aware of the limitations of a short barrel and the 38 loading, and within those limitations, I want a round that allows me to have reasonable expectations about it's performance. I think Speer did their homework on the 135g bullet, I just need to get it going fast enough.
Note, crimp jump was negligible, a couple thousandths at most.
Speer initially recommended this to me, writing " you’re a candidate for the Short Barrel with the 340PD, the part # 23921 (20 round box)was designed for it".
When I brought my chrono results to their attention, Speer replied that "individual guns may vary" and "its the best you’ll find for the short barreled guns." Speer did not make any claim that the bullet would expand or penetrate properly at the speeds I clocked.
 
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mscampbell2734 said:
I'd go with the mag load.

That 860 fps is MUZZLE vel. At 10 yards that's going to be down to 800 fps. Add in winter, say 30 degrees, and a couple of layers of clothing and you want as much muzzle energy as you can get.
Click to expand...
That is pure speculation on your part while the engineers at Speer tested it. You will not lose 60 fps in 10 yards and that bullet has been tested and performers.

I carry the .38 Special +P load because it's very accurate in my revolver and the bullet has been tested and passes. You can use what you want but don't guess and use that as a reason to use something else.
 
per post #24;

Speer data list a MV of 860 and a 25yd vel. of 838fps.....
in a nice warm testing lab.

Who knows what the temp. of ammo will be if carried on your hip in the winter time.........? The main thing is that it goes bang when needed.

The 135gr shoots to POA in my 38 snub nose.
A 125gr JHP and the 158gr FBI loads need to have "Kentucky Windage" added to be on target in my 1 7/8" revolver at ten feet.

Which is better accuracy or energy ?
Expansion should happen but it is not a given...............
 
Chrono results 357 Short Barrel

I was finally able to chrono the Speer 357 135g short barrel. I was not expecting over 1000 FPS. 4 rounds averaged 1027 FPS from my S&W 340PD with 1.875" barrel. The fifth round was measured for crimp jump at +.036" and then did not register on the chrono, but felt normal. This round averaged 316 ft/lb muzzle energy and was the most comfortable of the 357 mags I've tested to shoot in my revolver. A lot has been made of the lesser power of this round compared to other 357 mags. The velocity has been kept lower then normal for 357. Speer indicates on their data sheet that the bullet does not perform the same if driven too fast. http://www.cowboy6.com/a40/357_gd04.pdf
Compared to the Underwood 38 +P 125g GDHP at 1060 FPS and 312 ft/lb, the Speer 357 short barrel is easier to shoot for me-it did not cut my finger like the other 357 rounds, nor did hit my bare hand as hard. I was not able to check it for accuracy, but I will, as it is at the top of my list for my gun. Granted, If I had a 642 that weighed 4 or so ounces more, the Underwood GDHP or Buffalo Bore158g heavy LSWCHP would be a likely choice depending on accuracy.
FWIW, I did chrono the Corbon 110 DPX Barnes bullet round at an average of 956 FPS.This made 223 ft/lb muzzle energy and was easy on my hand. I realize a lot of folks don't like the penetration propensity of lighter bullets, but I want to share the data with you.
 
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pittpa said:
Useful link! Thank you. Wondering why LCR seems to make consistently higher velocity than my 340 with same length barrel. This is why I test, though.
Click to expand...

The LCR has 6 grooves at 1:16
The 340 has 5 grooves at 1:18
Might explain the difference.
 
I've never been overly impressed with what I'm getting over the chrono from the +p 135gr either. Mostly it's big spreads and down on velocity, even from some of my 'fast' guns. I'd be more confident in the load if it had the advertised numbers instead of 'best case' warm conditions/ fast gun etc to actually meet the performance envelope for that bullet.
As it is, I still think it's a 'good' load and they go bang reliably, at least.
In .38sp, I still lean toward BB and Undewood who load it to its full potential instead of bottom end '+p'.
 
Otreb said:
I've never been overly impressed with what I'm getting over the chrono from the +p 135gr either. Mostly it's big spreads and down on velocity, even from some of my 'fast' guns. I'd be more confident in the load if it had the advertised numbers instead of 'best case' warm conditions/ fast gun etc to actually meet the performance envelope for that bullet.
As it is, I still think it's a 'good' load and they go bang reliably, at least.
In .38sp, I still lean toward BB and Undewood who load it to its full potential instead of bottom end '+p'.
Click to expand...

Which is why I load my own.
 
Anyone chrono this in three-inch barrels? I'd expect at least 75 FPS higher velocities.
 
Nevada Ed said:
In a LCR 357 the 135gr will be ok but.........

in a real steel 357 K frame or larger the 125gr is all that is needed for a SD load with a JHP design.
Click to expand...

For those who care to shoot them. I love my model 23 but I prefer my hand not be sore and my finger bleeding.
 
Nevada Ed said:
per post #24;

Speer data list a MV of 860 and a 25yd vel. of 838fps.....
in a nice warm testing lab.

Who knows what the temp. of ammo will be if carried on your hip in the winter time.........? The main thing is that it goes bang when needed.

The 135gr shoots to POA in my 38 snub nose.
A 125gr JHP and the 158gr FBI loads need to have "Kentucky Windage" added to be on target in my 1 7/8" revolver at ten feet.

Which is better accuracy or energy ?
Expansion should happen but it is not a given...............
Click to expand...

May I ask what snub you have?
 
Has anyone compared the expansion and penetration of the 135 SB GDHP with the 158 GDHP?
 
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