3N38 deep-discounted

[Rogeronimo]

I believe that Wideners has 3N38 priced at $30.00/lb. It's sort of an unsung hero with little to no data for the stuff we shoot, yet is rumored to launch a 147gn 9mm at 1200fps. Gentlemen, it just may fall on our shoulders to bring out the potential of this powder.

 

[DWalt]

About ten years ago I experimented with 3N38 in 9x23mm Winchester, getting 1450+ ft/sec with 124 grain FMJ bullets. But I found I could get equivalent results with AA#5 which was much cheaper. So I haven't used 3N38 since then. I seem to remember that some propellant very similar to 3N38 is used in factory loadings for .22 Long Rifle.

 

[Rogeronimo]

I'm still in fascination mode with this powder in 357 mag. Took it out today, grouped about 4-6" off-hand at 25 yards, 3" bbl (I can't see the bullseye at that distance, or squeeze the trigger at the same point of aim, so I'm sorta proud), but center-mass accuracy nonetheless.

 

[Wise_A]

*sigh* Can't get any VihtaVuori powders locally. Folks around here complain that it's 30% more expensive, and yet happily run powders that use 30% heavier charge weights. Math--how does it work?

I keep hearing nice things about AA powders, they're next on my list once I run through all my current "experimental" powders.

 

[RDub]

Hello
3N38 is a powder that is useful in high performance auto cartridges and VihtaVuori only lists loads in this category. It's burning rate is very close to Blue Dot. In my testing I've found 3N38 being slightly slower.

Only one load is listed for the 9mm Luger in their data and that is for a 147gr load at 6.9grs.

Interestingly VihtaVuori does not list any 3N38 loads for the magnum revolver rounds or .38 Special, even though the burning rate would be useful there..

3N37 is the powder that was developed for the .22 Long Rifle.

 

[reddog81]

The problem I have with VV powders is that they are typically 50% more expensive than regular powders($32 to $35 vs $20 to $25). And the charges are usually 30% higher than similar powders.

For example a 125 grain XTP with N320 has a min of 4.9 and max of 5.6 while Bullseye runs 4.0 to 4.5. I know the powder is the cheapest part of the reloading equation but personally I can't justify paying $.03 when I can get Alliant or Hodgdon products for $.015

 

[Rogeronimo]

I ventured out on my own using 3N38 in 357, and later discovered that Sierra lists 357 rifle loads. My next efforts will focus on the .45 Win Mag.

 

[DWalt]

One of the main reasons I dropped VV 3N38 for AA#5 in the 9x23 Win is that the bulk density of 3N38 is much lower that of AA#5. The case capacity of the 9x23 is fairly limited due to the very heavy base, and I really had to compress the 3N38 load to get the MV range I wanted. AA#5 has a bulk density about 40%-50% greater than VV 3N38, and it was no trick to get enough powder in the case without compression (I settled on 8.6 grains of AA#5). I would see the same problem with 9x19 if 3N38 is used in small capacity cases, especially with heavier bullets.

 

[Rogeronimo]

One of the main reasons I dropped VV 3N38 for AA#5 in the 9x23 Win is that the bulk density of 3N38 is much lower that of AA#5. The case capacity of the 9x23 is fairly limited due to the very heavy base, and I really had to compress the 3N38 load to get the MV range I wanted. AA#5 has a bulk density about 40%-50% greater than VV 3N38, and it was no trick to get enough powder in the case without compression (I settled on 8.6 grains of AA#5). I would see the same problem with 9x19 if 3N38 is used in small capacity cases, especially with heavier bullets.

How were your pressures with that volume of 3N38? I really feel like I'm
Maxxing these 357's to the limit.

 

[Nemo288]

$30/lb. is not a deep discount at least in my mind.
Even for VV powders.
I do use Tin Star (N32C) and N105 in 44's but have not worked up an everyday load yet.
Be aware that CIP pressures for some rounds like the 444 are higher than SAAMI allows for.
All of VV's max loads conform to CIP and may in some cases exceed SAAMI.
I would approach with caution.
CIP Pressures
www.saami.org
CIP pressures are in BAR and must be converted to PSI.
1 Bar = 14.5037738 Psi
For instance the 444 I mentioned CIP goes up to 51 kpsi while here we only allow 44-45 kpsi.
I try to stay with SAAMI for the lever and break action guns I am enamored of.
I would cross reference any recipe from VV's site especially the top end ones against performance in other respected manuals.
The 444 sticks out as their top loads offer well more than 100 fps over any others on earth and is why I started looking at CIP standards.

 

[DWalt]

How were your pressures with that volume of 3N38? I really feel like I'm
Maxxing these 357's to the limit.

I do not know. But note that the SAAMI MAP limit for the 9x23mm is north of 55Kpsi. The 9x23 case is much heavier than its close cousin the .38 Super, precisely because of the high chamber pressure. Additionally, top 9x23 loads must use small pistol primers. I doubt it is possible to have a KB with the 9x23 so long as slower propellants are used. And as stated, it's not possible to cram enough propellant in the cases to get top velocities as many slower propellants such as Herco and Blue Dot have bulk densities which are too low. I've tried loading about every propellant available in the 9x23, and AA#5 works the best. I've heard of some who have achieved high MVs using .38 Super cases, but I wouldn't. Too much risk of a case base blowout in the unsupported GM chamber. Starline CLAIMS it is OK to use their 9mm Super Comp cases in similar high-pressure loads (I spoke with them about that), but I wouldn't trust them.

 

[Rogeronimo]

I do not know. But note that the SAAMI MAP limit for the 9x23mm is north of 55Kpsi. The 9x23 case is much heavier than its close cousin the .38 Super, precisely because of the high chamber pressure. Additionally, top 9x23 loads must use small pistol primers. I doubt it is possible to have a KB with the 9x23 so long as slower propellants are used. And as stated, it's not possible to cram enough propellant in the cases to get top velocities as many slower propellants such as Herco and Blue Dot have bulk densities which are too low. I've tried loading about every propellant available in the 9x23, and AA#5 works the best. I've heard of some who have achieved high MVs using .38 Super cases, but I wouldn't. Too much risk of a case base blowout in the unsupported GM chamber. Starline CLAIMS it is OK to use their 9mm Super Comp cases in similar high-pressure loads (I spoke with them about that), but I wouldn't trust them.

I'm loading 11.7gns behind a Sierra 140gn JHP, on top of a WSPM primer, but of course, I have more capacity to work with. I'm certain you already know, can a 9x29 be trimmed to 9x23 specs?

 

[DWalt]

Is the 9x29 the same as the 9mm Win Magnum? I have no idea as to the dimensional differences between the 9x29 and the 9x23, but even if the 9x29 could be shortened to 9x23, I don't know why anyone would bother to do that. Both Starline and Winchester make and sell 9x23 cases, or at least they used to. I have over 500 9x23 cases, and several hundred of the Starline 9mm Super Comp (same external dimensions as the 9x23).

 

[Rogeronimo]

Ah, you were addressing case capacity, which I misread as poor availability of 9x23 ... my bad. Yes, 9x29 is 9mm Win Mag, which pressures out at 45kpsi.