Babi Yar

[cmort666]

The Katyn massacre was prompted by Beria, approved by Stalin and carried out by Vasily Blokhin, who personally shot 7,000 of the 22,000 victims. 8% of the victims were Polish Jews

An interesting fact brought up in the book "Blood Lands" is that until the [joint] invasion of Poland, Stalin killed more Jews BY FAR than Hitler. These included victims of the Terror Famine and his various purges of the civil and military sectors.

The Jews in the Soviet leadership were HEAVILY victimized in the purges. Coincidentally, EXACTLY the same thing happened to Jewish-Polish communists AFTER WWII and the communist takeover.

Just more embarrassing and narrative killing facts...

 

[-db-]

What happened to Trotsky?

Against whom was Stalin's last great purge aimed?

Irrelevant. I simply pointed out that the Bolsheviks were heavily Jewish, which you apparently took issue with. Since your counter failed, you're now saying, "Yeah, but things didn't work out so well for them, did they?", a red herring, ceding the point.

And by the way, unless I'm mistaken, yesterday wasn't the anniversary of Katyn.

We can expect a thread from you titled Katyn next April then? I mean, just for consistency?

You don't need to answer. I'm sticking a fork in this as I'm really only interested in debating such things with people who argue in good faith.

 

[cmort666]

Irrelevant.

It's completely relevant.

The Jews were steadily winnowed from the upper (and middle and lower) ranks of the CPSU. A MUCH broader eliminationist campaign was only forestalled by Stalin's death. Those facts completely negate your argument.

We can expect a thread from you titled Katyn next April then? I mean, just for consistency?

Sure, either start a thread or remind me. There's plenty about the murders in "Blood Lands".

Some of us don't have any trouble condemning Babi Yar AND Katyn.

Some of us do.

You don't need to answer. I'm sticking a fork in this as I'm really only interested in debating such things with people who argue in good faith.

I don't think "good faith" means what you think it does.

You're using it the manner of the Japanese ultra-rightwing which uses it to mean "agreeing with me completely, contrary to all facts and reason". I don't do it for them, nor do I do it on this subject.

 

[blues7]

db, before you get too far, do you mind explaining what the overall point of your posts is?

My takeaway, so far, and forgive me if I'm wrong...is that the Jews are responsible for their own slaughter and the genocide perpetrated upon them (so no sense making a big deal about it).

Please clarify if I'm misreading your intent.

 

[cmort666]

It's an interesting world in which we live, when condemnation of a mass murder is considered "offensive".

 

[blues7]

It's an interesting world in which we live, when condemnation of a mass murder is considered "offensive".

And perhaps even worse, where mass murder is studiously ignored, condoned or justified.

 

[cmort666]

And perhaps even worse, where mass murder is studiously ignored, condoned or justified.

There are agendas and supporting narratives in play.

Been there, done that.

 

[blues7]

There are agendas and supporting narratives in play.

Been there, done that.

I hear you. As one who has spent some time in years past investigating groups that survive on hate mongering...as well as having a cousin in Paris whose father was sent to Drancy followed by Auschwitz in 1942...I have little sympathy for such agendas and narratives promulgated by any group against any other based upon the vagaries of their birth. Period.

 

[cmort666]

I hear you. As one who has spent some time in years past investigating groups that survive on hate mongering...as well as having a cousin in Paris whose father was sent to Drancy followed by Auschwitz in 1942...I have little sympathy for such agendas and narratives promulgated by any group against any other based upon the vagaries of their birth. Period.

I have a simple hatred for infantile savagery. I don't care if there's a swastika, a hammer and sickle, or some Arabic slogan flying over it.

I hate stupidity, and true evil is always stupid at its core.

 

[Absalom]

It's victors history in the sense certain issues and events get a lot of attention paid while others, even if of greater importance and/or scale, tend to be ignored, downplayed or forgotten. This is hardly deniable.
.......

Actually, yes it is. It's perfectly deniable. In my opinion, the contention that Stalin's crimes tend to be ignored, downplayed or forgotten is simply counter-factual.

.....Bolsheviks (whose leadership consisted largely of Jews, ironically) on both sides of the Atlantic murdered far more people than the Germans ever did but you rarely hear anything about their atrocities. ....

But I am curious about those murderous Bolsheviks on the other side of the Atlantic. I've indeed been kept ignorant of those.

 

[cmort666]

But I am curious about those murderous Bolsheviks on the other side of the Atlantic. I've indeed been kept ignorant of those.

Trotsky spent some time in New York City, but as far as I know all of his murdering was done in the future Soviet Union and Poland...

 

[Old TexMex]

The Jews in the Warsaw and Lodz Ghettos weren't shooting EACH OTHER.

Nor are thousands of people on the west side of Chicago being marched into the Cook County Forest Preserves and being shot and buried in mass graves, nor packed onto boxcars and sent to Indiana to be gassed.

There were Jews who participated in the Nazi crimes. George Soros has admitted such. I'm not trying to lessen your message, I am saying that the lesson has gone unlearned, and too often the advocates of progressivism are blind to the murders of millions, as in Cambodia and the Soviet Union and China. I trust you do not deny the occurances?

I have no arguement with you, but there are those who are convinced that to turn away from modern carnage is acceptable.

History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

 

[Old TexMex]

Actually, yes it is. It's perfectly deniable. In my opinion, the contention that Stalin's crimes tend to be ignored, downplayed or forgotten is simply counter-factual.



But I am curious about those murderous Bolsheviks on the other side of the Atlantic. I've indeed been kept ignorant of those.

Perfectly deniably. Ah yes, perfectly.
When we see the popularity of Che T-shirt wearing movie stars and "modern" apologists in every venue, extolling the virtues of socialistic planning, perfectly deniable, or more accurately...."worth it".

Are the only ones responsible for the murders those who pulled the trigger? Are not the facilitators, the financiers of atrocities culpable? Or are they just too big and important to be prosecuted? Perhaps "no reasonable prosecutor"would consider it...

 

[S&W Fan]

Anyone adhering to the concept of "Jewish Bolshevism" hopefully understands where that came from: initially brought to prominence by admitted Anti-Semite Henry Hamilton Beamish and then spread to Germany by Alfred Rosenberg (NOT Jewish btw) and one of the criminals sentenced to death at Nuremberg.

I'd hope anyone claiming to be a student of history is not only aware of the Kapos and the Jewish Ghetto Police in Warsaw but also that virtually every time one group has come to power over another there are turn coats at every corner. Anyone remember a guy named Benedict Arnold to name just one?

And also waiting to find out who were the murderous Bolsheviks on this side of the Atlantic. I'm sorry, my history is a bit rusty.

 

[Old TexMex]

Anyone adhering to the concept of "Jewish Bolshevism" hopefully understands where that came from: initially brought to prominence by admitted Anti-Semite Henry Hamilton Beamish and then spread to Germany by Alfred Rosenberg (NOT Jewish btw) and one of the criminals sentenced to death at Nuremberg.

I'd hope anyone claiming to be a student of history is not only aware of the Kapos and the Jewish Ghetto Police in Warsaw but also that virtually every time one group has come to power over another there are turn coats at every corner. Anyone remember a guy named Benedict Arnold to name just one?

And also waiting to find out who were the murderous Bolsheviks on this side of the Atlantic. I'm sorry, my history is a bit rusty.

You can forgive Che and Fidel, or choose to ignore them, or even say Cuba isn't on this side of the Atlantic. And Politifact would probably agree with you.
(Bolshevik was changed to Communist party in '52. Both Fidel and Dr. Guevara qualify. Both as murderers and Bolsheviks)

 

[S&W Fan]

You can forgive Che and Fidel, or choose to ignore them, or even say Cuba isn't on this side of the Atlantic. And Politifact would probably agree with you.

Gotcha, I should've realized that, apologies for that part of my post. I'm embarrassed as I have a friend who's parents left Cuba at just the right time.

 

[the ringo kid]

Trotsky spent some time in New York City, but as far as I know all of his murdering was done in the future Soviet Union and Poland...

I wonder if trotsky-or beria for that matter? ever got mugged in nyc or elsewhere? to account for some of their pent up frustrations. Shame they didnt use it on stalin.

 

[the ringo kid]

There were Jews who participated in the Nazi crimes. George Soros has admitted such. I'm not trying to lessen your message, I am saying that the lesson has gone unlearned, and too often the advocates of progressivism are blind to the murders of millions, as in Cambodia and the Soviet Union and China. I trust you do not deny the occurances?

I have no arguement with you, but there are those who are convinced that to turn away from modern carnage is acceptable.

History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

Those Jews were called: Kapos. There is an excellent late 1950s or early 60s? b&w movie made in Czecholslovakia-called Kapo-which is stunningly brutal for its time. It was VERY realistic to say the least.

 

[Old TexMex]

Gotcha, I should've realized that, apologies for that part of my post. I'm embarrassed as I have a friend who's parents left Cuba at just the right time.

No sweat....Me too. And friends who sadly didn't, both Cuba and Nicaragua.

 

[cmort666]

There were Jews who participated in the Nazi crimes.

Yes, but unlike in Chicago, the Jews were not their own principle assailants, much less the planners of the carnage.