The SAINT VS ANY M&P 15

[snm8510]

waiting on the colt fanboys to come running in.... we all know how much better a colt is over anything


but in all seriousness, from what i'm getting from this thread, why pay any more for an ar than the sport? what makes like daniel defense better? how can you justify those prices for simply free floating the barrel?

 

[sgtsandman]

SA is just trying to play catch up in the AR game. I don't have feelings negative or positive about their rifle. I have one of their pistols and I like it. I like their M1A but I'm not sure I want another $1600 rifle just yet.

I'm not a brand loyalist, I go with the best buy for my money in the features that I want. If the SA offers it, I will consider it, as I will consider a Colt, S&W, and so on. Whichever seems to be the best match, is the firearm I'll get. Which ever one it would end up being, the trigger is going to get changed out unless it comes with a better trigger than standard AR already but it has to have the right pull weight as well.

 

[Disabled1]

SA is just trying to play catch up in the AR game. I don't have feelings negative or positive about their rifle. I have one of their pistols and I like it. I like their M1A but I'm not sure I want another $1600 rifle just yet.

I'm not a brand loyalist, I go with the best buy for my money in the features that I want. If the SA offers it, I will consider it, as I will consider a Colt, S&W, and so on. Whichever seems to be the best match, is the firearm I'll get. Which ever one it would end up being, the trigger is going to get changed out unless it comes with a better trigger than standard AR already but it has to have the right pull weight as well.

I just recently bought (2) of these for my AR's. The spring kit will come next. But, just eliminating the creep has done wonders for the trigger.

Grade 8 Trigger Adjustment Screw 223 6.5Grendel 300Blackout, with TOOL | eBay

 

[sgtsandman]

I just recently bought (2) of these for my AR's. The spring kit will come next. But, just eliminating the creep has done wonders for the trigger.

Grade 8 Trigger Adjustment Screw 223 6.5Grendel 300Blackout, with TOOL | eBay

I've seen those before but never talked to one who had one installed. Does it stay set pretty well or is a lighter thread locker, like blue or pink going to be needed?

 

[hdfinder47]

For $499.95 delivered to your FFL, I think the Radical Firearms AR (made in Texas, by gosh) is a better deal than this or the M&P - although these are both good guns. Very good trigger out of the box and nice features.

 

[hdwhit]

snm8510 wrote:
waiting on the colt fanboys to come running in.... we all know how much better a colt is over anything

Don't let the people at Rock River hear you say that.

 

[hdwhit]

cyphertext wrote:
Everything else being equal, the 4150 barrel should last longer in theory... Kinda like 60,000 mile tires vs. 80,000 mile tires... one will outlast the other, but they are both wear items. You decide if the premium for longer wear is worth it.

That analogy may be overstating things somewhat. The range of alloying elements in 4140 and 4150 is identical except for the amount of carbon (40/100 percent vs. 50/100 percent, on average) and except at the limits of mechanical performance makes little difference, particularly in the case of a semi-automatic-only rifle.

It might be more apt to say that it's like someone who is only going to drive 30,000 miles in their lifetime comparing 75,000 mile tires with 80,000 mile tires. For most users, the theoretical difference in barrel life will be of interest only to the shooter's heirs.

 

[TexasRaider]

The rifle and the marketing are two different issues.

On the cost/value front, if the MSRP is $899, then they'll probably be had for a little less than around $800 flat. Is that worth it? For me, probably not. Especially with that silly name on it.

On the ad campaign front, it's beyond ridiculous. I really believe SA must've seen the success Sig had with their Legion Series and its silly "Oooooh! Tactical Wizards and 12th Level Phantom Warrior Black Belt Tank Paratrooper Recon LRRP's Only Need Apply! Oooohhh! Ooooohh!!"atmosphere. SA must've been inspired by that to try something they "thought" was hip.

One can almost hear the marketing meetings on the sweaty gym vids used to sell this thing..."This is mod, chill. Folks be thinkin' this is their next bae! They go cray for dis! Deez models, dey is trill, streets ahead! We be fleek and that M&P? It's rekt, bro! Saint girls are hella dank, dust ol' Colt boys getting jelly!"

Um, yeah.

I'm not bashing Sig for starting this type of ad hype (I'm actually pretty close to a fanboy) but I am blaming them. That whole secret decoder ring thing with the case, coin and knife was just embarrassing. Just sell the darned gun and make the other toys included options, whydoncha? No secret handshakes or disappearing ink messages are really needed. Frankly the whole affair felt like some 1950's breakfast cereal mail-in campaign to join the Captain Midnight club or something. Ugh.

But it did seem to catch fire and Sig sold a lot of Legions - I think SA watched all that silliness and thought "We need something mysterious, trendy and name-catchy, too!" Makes one wonder what company is next up to crank out some magical, mystical, cryptic "it!" campaign, filmed like a mid-90's Zima ad. I bet it's S&W.

At any rate, it'll be interesting to see where the real world prices land and how the gun actually shakes out, though.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I just recently bought (2) of these for my AR's. The spring kit will come next. But, just eliminating the creep has done wonders for the trigger.

Grade 8 Trigger Adjustment Screw 223 6.5Grendel 300Blackout, with TOOL | eBay

Keep in mind that the safety on an AR does not block the hammer from falling forward and striking the firing pin. All the safety does is block trigger movement. Why is that important to understand? Well... sear engagement works as the default drop-safety on a GI trigger. If you reduce sear engagement too much you increase the potential for the hammer to lose sear engagement and slam forward firing a round when the rifle is dropped or otherwise exposed to rough handling. Be cautious when tinkering with your trigger.

Here's an animation that explains how a GI trigger works.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh2FjzVVIZY[/ame]

Here's a vid of what the screw does...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJxrBbBd644[/ame]

 

[44wheelman]

Yeah but, 4150 and 4150CMV are not identical. The big difference; Mil spec 4150CMV has .25% vanadium, marginally less carbon than than 4150 (C=.41-.49...only marginally more than 4140 C=.38-.41) and other minuscule tweaks.

MIL-B-11595 E BAR METAL BLANKS STEEL BARRELS SMALL ARMS

Just had to look up what the CMV acronym brought...

We use tool steels in the 9% and 15% Vanadium content, but I'm sure the military feels that .25% must bring alot of wear resistance to the table too.

That analogy may be overstating things somewhat. The range of alloying elements in 4140 and 4150 is identical except for the amount of carbon (40/100 percent vs. 50/100 percent, on average) and except at the limits of mechanical performance makes little difference, particularly in the case of a semi-automatic-only rifle.

It might be more apt to say that it's like someone who is only going to drive 30,000 miles in their lifetime comparing 75,000 mile tires with 80,000 mile tires. For most users, the theoretical difference in barrel life will be of interest only to the shooter's heirs.

 

[flip flappy]

I have been pondering and researching AR's for a few weeks. I went to my LGS yesterday to check out their offerings and man I was not dissapointed! My main interest was an M&P 15T and they had one in stock. They also had a few Saints priced at $799. I liked the Saint but just was not crazy over the fixed front sight. I want to add an EOTec red dot sight and preferred the fold down front and rear sight of the 15T. I did think about saving a few bucks, going with the Saint and taking off the fixed sight and adding a folding front sight. I left that store and went to a small store that a friend of my FIL owns to see if they could order me a 15T cheaper. He checked it out and said he couldn't get one and was not sure when any would be available. Dern! Went back to the other store and they had sold all their Saints but still had the 15T. I bought it and another guy was buying 2 Sport II's at the same time. The election has got the gun business hopping! In particular AR 15's. It was dark when I got home with it and dark when I got home tonight so I have not shot it yet. Hope to get home a little early Friday and try it out.

 

[Rastoff]

The Saint is a better rifle on paper than the Sport 2 is.

4150 CMV barrel vs 4140 barrel on the sport
1:8 twist vs 1:9 twist
Mid length gas system vs. carbine gas
BCM grip vs A2 grip
BCM stock vs standard M4 stock
BCM keymod hand guard with heat shields vs standard guards without heat shields
M16 BCG vs AR BCG
Upgraded trigger vs standard trigger

This is an interesting list of things that are different from the Sport II, but not one of them describes why it's $250 better.

I'm not convinced the mid gas system is better than the carbine or vice versa. I have all three, carbine, mid and rifle, and all my guns work without issue. I would love to discuss why one is better than the other.

Upgraded trigger? Upgraded what? Until I actually feel one, I'm with Phil on that, meh.

Everything else is personal preference. Now, if you like all that stuff over the standard cheapo stuff on the Sport II, it will probably save money by buying the SAINT over changing out all that stuff on the M&P. But if you're not in love with it, it's not worth the price because you'll change it out anyway.

At this price level the forearm should be free float and Key Mod or M-Lock.

 

[cyphertext]

This is an interesting list of things that are different from the Sport II, but not one of them describes why it's $250 better.

Every item in that list is an upgrade vs. what the Sport 2 comes with. Are you saying that a BCM key mod hand guard with heat shields is not better than the standard carbine hand guard without heat shields that comes on the Sport?

I'm not convinced the mid gas system is better than the carbine or vice versa. I have all three, carbine, mid and rifle, and all my guns work without issue. I would love to discuss why one is better than the other.

Mid length is said to have a softer recoil impulse. I honestly don't think I could tell if I were shooting blindfolded. But if comparing the Saint to the Sport 2 as stock, the mid length hand guard of the Saint will give you more room on the hand guard, and the sight radius is increased. And, that bayonet you secretly wanted to add to the rifle will fit properly on the 16" barrel with mid-length gas system.

Upgraded trigger? Upgraded what? Until I actually feel one, I'm with Phil on that, meh.

The trigger is nickel boron and polished which should make it smoother than the stock trigger. Probably won't feel much different than a polishing job on a GI trigger, but it is already done for you.

Everything else is personal preference. Now, if you like all that stuff over the standard cheapo stuff on the Sport II, it will probably save money by buying the SAINT over changing out all that stuff on the M&P. But if you're not in love with it, it's not worth the price because you'll change it out anyway.

You may not like it and you may change it out... and if that is the case, then you probably should not buy the rifle. But you can not argue that the BCM furniture is not an upgrade over the standard stuff.

At this price level the forearm should be free float and Key Mod or M-Lock.

Many rifles are at or above this price point that don't have those features. Colt LE6920 comes to mind and it as basic as basic gets. BCM M4 Mod 0 is also well above the $899 MSRP price, and it is not free floated either.

I don't think it is a bad price for what you are getting. I don't care for the roll mark, but it appears to have many of the things that Sport owners upgrade to already. Each individual will have to decide for themselves if the upgrades are worth the money and a good value.

 

[Kanewpadle]

For the time being the best bang for your buck is the Colt Expanse.

 

[Disabled1]

Well, it just so happens that if I sell my 4 wheeler I will have enough to buy a SAINT and some other lower priced EL AR. And, a FIELDSPORT red and green dot sight for $22. Decisions, decisions.

 

[Grayfox]

Let me give you my perspective.
I am not an AR guy. Don't own one, don't want one. In fact, this is my first time to even look, much less post in this particular forum.
Nor do I know the differences between one brand or another, features, mods or whatever else is involved with an AR type rifle.

However, I do know Springfield Armory. I own a couple of M1As and several 1911s. I know their quality and I know their customer service is the best.

So if, and that's a big IF I were to buy an AR, I'd buy a Saint and never look back.

 

[hdwhit]

44wheelman wrote:
Yeah but, 4150 and 4150CMV are not identical. The big difference; Mil spec 4150CMV has .25% vanadium, marginally less carbon than than 4150 (C=.41-.49...only marginally more than 4140 C=.38-.41) and other minuscule tweaks.

Okay, so all you have done to my comment is change it to say that it might be more apt to say that it's like someone who is only going to drive 30,000 miles in their lifetime comparing 75,000 mile tires with 90,000 mile tires.

The conclusion, however, remains the same. Overkill is overkill. For most users, the theoretical difference in barrel life will be of interest only to the shooter's heirs.

 

[hdwhit]

kanewpadle wrote:
For the time being the best bang for your buck is the Colt Expanse.

No, it's not.

Well, until you provide a reason for your assertion, it is no more valid than mine disputing you.

In my case, my S&W M&P-15 Sport II cost fully $400 less than the store was selling a Colt Expanse at the time. The S&W rifle is a quality build with good manufacturer support that will almost certainly last me as long as I care to shoot it. In service, it has so far functioned flawlessly. In my circumstances, spending more for a Colt (or any other brand for that matter) would have given me ZERO additional functionality, accuracy or durability, but would have cost me a lot more money.

So, tell me, how does that translate into the Colt providing the "best bang for the buck"?

And how does it translate into Colt providing the "best bang for the buck" for shooters in all circumstances as your post suggests?

 

[TTSH]

I don't think it is a bad price for what you are getting. I don't care for the roll mark, but it appears to have many of the things that Sport owners upgrade to already. Each individual will have to decide for themselves if the upgrades are worth the money and a good value.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a modestly upgraded AR... and of course any upgraded AR is going to list for more money than a basic economy one. Hopefully, folks here aren't down on the concept of other than the cheapest AR they can find or build. A Sport II bought at the right price is hard to beat in its class, but even S&W offers and sells more expensive ARs.

My only objection is to the marketing hype that went along with the release of "The SAINT." I found it embarrassingly silly once I saw that it was just another slightly upgraded but otherwise pretty standard AR. It remains to be seen if giving a supposedly cool name ("The SAINT") to your new AR offering was a good idea or a bad one.

I'm old, curmudgeonly, grumpy and even a but jaded. I'm not automatically impressed by an AR just because they gave it a cool name. But maybe they aren't trying to sell that AR to crusty old me. Maybe other folks *are* impressed by an AR with a cool name and those are the folks they are trying to reach with it.

 

[petemacmahon]

IDK, it's just another AR. Kinda like just another Glock. Can't get excited over it. Do I have one, yeah. Do I need another. NO