The SAINT VS ANY M&P 15

[flip flappy]

I have been pondering and researching AR's for a few weeks. I went to my LGS yesterday to check out their offerings and man I was not dissapointed! My main interest was an M&P 15T and they had one in stock. They also had a few Saints priced at $799. I liked the Saint but just was not crazy over the fixed front sight. I want to add an EOTec red dot sight and preferred the fold down front and rear sight of the 15T. I did think about saving a few bucks, going with the Saint and taking off the fixed sight and adding a folding front sight. I left that store and went to a small store that a friend of my FIL owns to see if they could order me a 15T cheaper. He checked it out and said he couldn't get one and was not sure when any would be available. Dern! Went back to the other store and they had sold all their Saints but still had the 15T. I bought it and another guy was buying 2 Sport II's at the same time. The election has got the gun business hopping! In particular AR 15's. It was dark when I got home with it and dark when I got home tonight so I have not shot it yet. Hope to get home a little early Friday and try it out.

 

[Rastoff]

The Saint is a better rifle on paper than the Sport 2 is.

4150 CMV barrel vs 4140 barrel on the sport
1:8 twist vs 1:9 twist
Mid length gas system vs. carbine gas
BCM grip vs A2 grip
BCM stock vs standard M4 stock
BCM keymod hand guard with heat shields vs standard guards without heat shields
M16 BCG vs AR BCG
Upgraded trigger vs standard trigger

This is an interesting list of things that are different from the Sport II, but not one of them describes why it's $250 better.

I'm not convinced the mid gas system is better than the carbine or vice versa. I have all three, carbine, mid and rifle, and all my guns work without issue. I would love to discuss why one is better than the other.

Upgraded trigger? Upgraded what? Until I actually feel one, I'm with Phil on that, meh.

Everything else is personal preference. Now, if you like all that stuff over the standard cheapo stuff on the Sport II, it will probably save money by buying the SAINT over changing out all that stuff on the M&P. But if you're not in love with it, it's not worth the price because you'll change it out anyway.

At this price level the forearm should be free float and Key Mod or M-Lock.

 

[cyphertext]

This is an interesting list of things that are different from the Sport II, but not one of them describes why it's $250 better.

Every item in that list is an upgrade vs. what the Sport 2 comes with. Are you saying that a BCM key mod hand guard with heat shields is not better than the standard carbine hand guard without heat shields that comes on the Sport?

I'm not convinced the mid gas system is better than the carbine or vice versa. I have all three, carbine, mid and rifle, and all my guns work without issue. I would love to discuss why one is better than the other.

Mid length is said to have a softer recoil impulse. I honestly don't think I could tell if I were shooting blindfolded. But if comparing the Saint to the Sport 2 as stock, the mid length hand guard of the Saint will give you more room on the hand guard, and the sight radius is increased. And, that bayonet you secretly wanted to add to the rifle will fit properly on the 16" barrel with mid-length gas system.

Upgraded trigger? Upgraded what? Until I actually feel one, I'm with Phil on that, meh.

The trigger is nickel boron and polished which should make it smoother than the stock trigger. Probably won't feel much different than a polishing job on a GI trigger, but it is already done for you.

Everything else is personal preference. Now, if you like all that stuff over the standard cheapo stuff on the Sport II, it will probably save money by buying the SAINT over changing out all that stuff on the M&P. But if you're not in love with it, it's not worth the price because you'll change it out anyway.

You may not like it and you may change it out... and if that is the case, then you probably should not buy the rifle. But you can not argue that the BCM furniture is not an upgrade over the standard stuff.

At this price level the forearm should be free float and Key Mod or M-Lock.

Many rifles are at or above this price point that don't have those features. Colt LE6920 comes to mind and it as basic as basic gets. BCM M4 Mod 0 is also well above the $899 MSRP price, and it is not free floated either.

I don't think it is a bad price for what you are getting. I don't care for the roll mark, but it appears to have many of the things that Sport owners upgrade to already. Each individual will have to decide for themselves if the upgrades are worth the money and a good value.

 

[Kanewpadle]

For the time being the best bang for your buck is the Colt Expanse.

 

[Disabled1]

Well, it just so happens that if I sell my 4 wheeler I will have enough to buy a SAINT and some other lower priced EL AR. And, a FIELDSPORT red and green dot sight for $22. Decisions, decisions.

 

[Grayfox]

Let me give you my perspective.
I am not an AR guy. Don't own one, don't want one. In fact, this is my first time to even look, much less post in this particular forum.
Nor do I know the differences between one brand or another, features, mods or whatever else is involved with an AR type rifle.

However, I do know Springfield Armory. I own a couple of M1As and several 1911s. I know their quality and I know their customer service is the best.

So if, and that's a big IF I were to buy an AR, I'd buy a Saint and never look back.

 

[hdwhit]

44wheelman wrote:
Yeah but, 4150 and 4150CMV are not identical. The big difference; Mil spec 4150CMV has .25% vanadium, marginally less carbon than than 4150 (C=.41-.49...only marginally more than 4140 C=.38-.41) and other minuscule tweaks.

Okay, so all you have done to my comment is change it to say that it might be more apt to say that it's like someone who is only going to drive 30,000 miles in their lifetime comparing 75,000 mile tires with 90,000 mile tires.

The conclusion, however, remains the same. Overkill is overkill. For most users, the theoretical difference in barrel life will be of interest only to the shooter's heirs.

 

[hdwhit]

kanewpadle wrote:
For the time being the best bang for your buck is the Colt Expanse.

No, it's not.

Well, until you provide a reason for your assertion, it is no more valid than mine disputing you.

In my case, my S&W M&P-15 Sport II cost fully $400 less than the store was selling a Colt Expanse at the time. The S&W rifle is a quality build with good manufacturer support that will almost certainly last me as long as I care to shoot it. In service, it has so far functioned flawlessly. In my circumstances, spending more for a Colt (or any other brand for that matter) would have given me ZERO additional functionality, accuracy or durability, but would have cost me a lot more money.

So, tell me, how does that translate into the Colt providing the "best bang for the buck"?

And how does it translate into Colt providing the "best bang for the buck" for shooters in all circumstances as your post suggests?

 

[TTSH]

I don't think it is a bad price for what you are getting. I don't care for the roll mark, but it appears to have many of the things that Sport owners upgrade to already. Each individual will have to decide for themselves if the upgrades are worth the money and a good value.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a modestly upgraded AR... and of course any upgraded AR is going to list for more money than a basic economy one. Hopefully, folks here aren't down on the concept of other than the cheapest AR they can find or build. A Sport II bought at the right price is hard to beat in its class, but even S&W offers and sells more expensive ARs.

My only objection is to the marketing hype that went along with the release of "The SAINT." I found it embarrassingly silly once I saw that it was just another slightly upgraded but otherwise pretty standard AR. It remains to be seen if giving a supposedly cool name ("The SAINT") to your new AR offering was a good idea or a bad one.

I'm old, curmudgeonly, grumpy and even a but jaded. I'm not automatically impressed by an AR just because they gave it a cool name. But maybe they aren't trying to sell that AR to crusty old me. Maybe other folks *are* impressed by an AR with a cool name and those are the folks they are trying to reach with it.

 

[petemacmahon]

IDK, it's just another AR. Kinda like just another Glock. Can't get excited over it. Do I have one, yeah. Do I need another. NO

 

[cyphertext]

IDK, it's just another AR. Kinda like just another Glock. Can't get excited over it. Do I have one, yeah. Do I need another. NO

It is just another AR, but I'll take as many manufacturers cranking out ARs as possible. Competition drives prices lower, more to choose from, and harder to push a ban when the rifle is so popular and so widely accepted for hunting, competition, and self defense.

 

[Mark S.]

Well known manufacturer and customer service makes the difference

I don't think it is a bad price for what you are getting. I don't care for the roll mark, but it appears to have many of the things that Sport owners upgrade to already. Each individual will have to decide for themselves if the upgrades are worth the money and a good value.

I agree with this (bold) statement. Except for the A2 front sight, these 'enhancements' are what most people change or want to change on their Sport or other basic AR-15.

What makes this SA AR different than most ARs is, like S&W, Springfield Armory is a well known manufacturer that offers a multitude of firearms. That coupled with a great customer service reputation they are able to take a little risk up front when they introduce a new line. And soon after they offer a dizzying number of variations. Think 1911s and other pistols.
Once this SAINT gets off the ground (which it seems like it already has), look for a "Loaded" version of the SA AR-15 in the not too distant future.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I'm not convinced the mid gas system is better than the carbine or vice versa. I have all three, carbine, mid and rifle, and all my guns work without issue. I would love to discuss why one is better than the other.

There's a ton of information available on the Net regarding different length gas systems. Some of it is over my pay grade. You're a technical guy... I'm sure the readership would benefit from an OP of pros and cons if you wanted to start a thread on it.

I decided an adjustable gas block was the way to go in dealing with my over-gassed carbine. Made a world of difference in felt recoil and the brass is ejecting exactly where the "chart" indicates a properly gassed system should.

 

[Mark S.]

I, like many other AR-15 fans would probably opt to build or slap together an upper and lower of our choice for our next AR.

But that is because I (we) have already bought a couple factory AR-15s and know what we like and don't like in those offerings.

For a first, and possible only AR-15 purchase, the SAINT could be just the ticket. I paid ~$800 for my first basic AR-15 carbine a decade ago. I have put close to ~$200 more into it with 'upgrades' and accessories.

If it weren't for the sentimental value I'd trade that low round count original for a SAINT without much thought.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

The Saint is a better rifle on paper than the Sport 2 is.

4150 CMV barrel vs 4140 barrel on the sport
In my opinion, the biggest advantage of 4150 is less barrel deflection under heavy full auto use. This is important in combat, but not for my purposes. And I think the barrel deflection issue is offset to a certain extent by using an A2 barrel profile vs an M4 profile. For my purposes, I would not get a Saint simply to get this feature.

1:8 twist vs 1:9 twist
I prefer the 1:9" as I mainly use 55 grainers. I rejected 1:8 and 1:7 barreled guns for this reason.

Mid length gas system vs. carbine gas
I like mid length for free float, but not for standard forends.

BCM grip vs A2 grip
BCM stock vs standard M4 stock
BCM keymod hand guard with heat shields vs standard guards without heat shields
I don't care for the BCM furniture, so that's a wash. In fact, I replaced the Sport II furniture with Magpul anyway.

M16 BCG vs AR BCG
If I was using the upper on a select fire lower, this would be nice. Otherwise, meh.

Upgraded trigger vs standard trigger
Have not tried the Saint trigger, so I don't know if this is a worthwhile feature for choosing a Saint over a Sport II. Having said that, my Sport II trigger is OK for a regular AR trigger.

Probably a few things I am forgetting. Each individual will have to decide if the different features are worth the money. Personally, if it can be had for around $800, I think it makes a good alternative to the Colt LE6920. But if you don't like the BCM furniture, it probably is not the best buy available.
Agree. For my purposes, the Sport II was a better buy.

I think the desirability of the Saint vs the Sport II is going to boil down to which features are useful or desirable to the potential owner and which ones are not. Make a check list and tally them up. One of the biggest differences, though, is the BCM furniture. If one does not care for it, then the gun may be a wash as the BCM furniture is a waste of money if changed out.

 

[Disabled1]

I saw a reply where someone claimed that a Colt is the ultimate AR, or, something similar to that. What does a Colt have (besides costing more) that other AR's don't have while competing against one another? Just because it's stamped Colt means that it's better than any other AR out there? Sure, I had an Vietnam era Colt M16 in Desert Storm, and, it saved my a** a great many times! But, it was fully auto, and one bad MOFO! I don't think today's Colt AR's (even though they are semi-auto) are even close to being as well built as my issued Colt was!
I'm going out on a twig here and going to state that I would rather own an S2 than a Colt!

 

[SPEEDGUNNER]

The SAINT? Is there more than one? Did I miss something? Isn't this the S&W Forum?

 

[fullmetal1911]

$900 MSRP and no chrome-lined barrel. No thanks. Too many other options on the market with a 1-8 twist melonited (nitrided) barrel. It does have some pretty nice furniture, but the grip and stock can be purchased and on any AR-15 that isn't an SBR I would rather have a free floated handguard anyway. All this hype and it ended up being a run of the mill AR-15 with a stupid name. At least it isn't as big of a let down as the new Walther Creed (again, what a stupid name for a gun)

 

[SavageMessiah]

What about not buying complete base rifles and instead getting complete uppers and lowers from places like PSA? Most appear to be rated 4-5 stars. Can you not get a Grand worth of rifle for $600 by buying complete uppers and lowers, BCG and CH? I'm talking about items complete with 1/7 twist, Magpul furniture pick-your-own barrel lengths, melonite/nitrite, chrome, keymod or M-LOK rails (pick your own length), no sights or gas blocks to remove. etc etc.

(Not saying that S&W or any major brand is a bad move due to being ready-to-fire out of the box, lifetime warranties, etc.

 

[Wolffe 104]

The Saint is a better rifle on paper than the Sport 2 is.

4150 CMV barrel vs 4140 barrel on the sport
1:8 twist vs 1:9 twist
Mid length gas system vs. carbine gas
BCM grip vs A2 grip
BCM stock vs standard M4 stock
BCM keymod hand guard with heat shields vs standard guards without heat shields
M16 BCG vs AR BCG
Upgraded trigger vs standard trigger

Probably a few things I am forgetting. Each individual will have to decide if the different features are worth the money. Personally, if it can be had for around $800, I think it makes a good alternative to the Colt LE6920. But if you don't like the BCM furniture, it probably is not the best buy available.

+ 1 and I will add: Carpenter 158 Steel Bolt, Shot Peened & Magnetic Particle Inspected.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

What about not buying complete base rifles and instead getting complete uppers and lowers from places like PSA?

Good question.

As an example... BCG comparisons.

These are the posted specs of the SAINT

BOLT CARRIER GROUP
M16 BCG w/ Carpenter 158 Steel Bolt, Shot Peened & Magnetic Particle Inspected
----------------------------------

These are the specs of a $99 BCG on sale at Palmetto today....

Made in USA. Bolt is made of Mil-spec Carpenter 158 steel, Shot peened, High pressure tested and Mag Particle Inspected. Gas key is machined out of bar stock, chrome lined phosphate coated, and secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is phosphated outside and chrome lined inside.

Features:
Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel bolt
Shot Peened Bolt
High pressure tested (HPT)
Mag particle inspected (MPI)
Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
Chrome Lined Gas Key
Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
Gas Key Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners
Gas Key Staked Per Mil-Spec
Tool Steel Extractor
Extractor Spring
Extractor O-ring Insert

-------------------

As far as the barrel... a mid length 41V50 Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel barrel can be purchased from PA for $119 or $99 on sale.

------------------

SAINT the rifle.... yawn. SAINT the video way more impressive.

 

[Disabled1]

Good question.

As an example... BCG comparisons.

These are the posted specs of the SAINT

BOLT CARRIER GROUP
M16 BCG w/ Carpenter 158 Steel Bolt, Shot Peened & Magnetic Particle Inspected
----------------------------------

These are the specs of a $99 BCG on sale at Palmetto today....

Made in USA. Bolt is made of Mil-spec Carpenter 158 steel, Shot peened, High pressure tested and Mag Particle Inspected. Gas key is machined out of bar stock, chrome lined phosphate coated, and secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is phosphated outside and chrome lined inside.

Features:
Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel bolt
Shot Peened Bolt
High pressure tested (HPT)
Mag particle inspected (MPI)
Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
Chrome Lined Gas Key
Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
Gas Key Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners
Gas Key Staked Per Mil-Spec
Tool Steel Extractor
Extractor Spring
Extractor O-ring Insert

-------------------

As far as the barrel... a mid length 41V50 Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel barrel can be purchased from PA for $119 or $99 on sale.

------------------

SAINT the rifle.... yawn. SAINT the video way more impressive.

I own some of those BCG's (Premiums without logo- you save $10). And, I like to use PSA parts to build an AR. But, I still like the SAINT! Wide awake here, NO YAWN!

 

[Rastoff]

What does a Colt have (besides costing more) that other AR's don't have while competing against one another?

The one thing that Colt has is its military history. Some folks just plain drool over anything the military has used. And, you can't deny that those guns have been through the mill and performed well.

 

[Rick_A]

The Colt and Springfield (minus the barrel) are both mil spec guns.

Another thing not mentioned is that the extension tube is forged/machined/rolled threads vs extruded and cut threads.

Pretty much anything will work for recreational use, though you get what you pay for.

Frankly the only thing I don't like about the Springfield is the silly "SAINT" text on the side.

 

[sgtsandman]

The one thing that Colt has is its military history. Some folks just plain drool over anything the military has used. And, you can't deny that those guns have been through the mill and performed well.

The same goes with 1911s. Some people say that if it doesn't say Colt on the side, it isn't a real 1911.

 

[A10]

The SAINT? Is there more than one? Did I miss something? Isn't this the S&W Forum?

Ain't that James Bond?????

Oh, and I was hoping for belt fed and a quick change barrel.....

 

[snm8510]

they've always said the AR was space aged, so i was hoping for one that shot lasers

 

[Arik]

The same goes with 1911s. Some people say that if it doesn't say Colt on the side, it isn't a real 1911.

Not the same thing. Has nothing to do with the Pony.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[sgtsandman]

Not the same thing. Has nothing to do with the Pony.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

My point is that some people put too much stock in the name on the side of the firearm instead of the firearm itself. It is perfectly possible that someone other than Colt can and does makes a firearm of the same quality and specification. In my opinion, such thinking ends up costing a person more because the brand name can charge more just because of the implied superiority of said name brand. I believe Colt has been doing that for a while, though with the recent financial issues may have leveled the playing field a bit.

 

[shawn mccarver]

If you want top tier, just get what the military gets. Colt LE6920SOCOM version if you can find one.

If you want entry level, the M&P Sport II is a great choice.

I had a big "yawn" when I read about the SAINT from Springfield. Sorry, but I have no use for the mid-length gas system, and while the remaining features are interesting, to me it just doesn't need to be priced that much higher than the M&P Sport II.

Now, AR-type rifles are so prevalent that everyone has an opinion, and the foregoing is mine, and it is no better than that of anyone else. Thank you for reading my opinion. I have enjoyed looking over the opinions of all of the other posters to see if I can learn anything, or to see if other opinions change my mind. I am always open to that, so thanks to everyone for posting your ideas on this topic.

Good show!