Nickel or Blue. Which hold up better over LTS and why ?

[model3sw]

Under the heading of antiques, I suppose we can include early hand ejectors up to appx 1940 for this rant only, too, but it is mostly antiques.

Let's have some pros and cons of owning nickel vs blue or blue vs nickel, other than the difference in value, from those of us who know by decades of experience of caring and Long Term Storage (LTS) and if anything in your climate makes it better or worse for you.

PLEASE, don't start dogging a product that you likely never used or just maybe heard a rumor about .. or ... you think you read something somewhere about it (you think) like in the annual issue or Mad Magazine, etc, way back when. Let's keep to facts and seek only for first hand, knowledge and experience. Us old timers will not discriminate against the younger and less experienced member / collectors.

I'll start with some of my greatest heartbreaks, where I take all the proper precautions.

Incident #1: Storing a clean, DRY (no oil laying on it) inside a premium zip case (rug) only to find several years later, the perfect original finish you put away years earlier is starting to sweat microscopic rust particles THROUGH a 99% nickel finish that was clean, tight and dry when you put it away in a heated safe.

I have had nickel antique top breaks, .32, 38, 44 that had perhaps a chip of nickel missing on the cylinder exit holes, put away oily, several years later the oil WALKS under the break in the nickel and now there are varicose veins running up the cylinder from that open spot.

Incident / lesson #2: NEXT time I put them away CLEAN, and DRY, with or without clean chemical paper around them, to find ... sometimes as short as 2 years later, the perfect nickel finish is sweating microscopic rust. Now you HAVE to "Flitz" or "Mothers", or "semi-chrome" (or whatever you use) lightly but repeatedly ... nice and easy ... by hand ... to find now you have pin point freckles spattered "in to" and all over your previously perfect nickel finish.

Incident / Lesson #3, my biggest and most costly lesson.

NEVER take advice from the manufacturer of a product without testing all the hype and allegations of what wonderful stuff they make or it is supposed to do and not do.

THIS time ( lesson 3) I searched many products. The (that time) recent rage was silicone cloths. Amongst other companies I solicited BLITZ .. not to be confused with Flitz. BLITZ made me a gross (144) each. of their jewelry polishing cloths (with embedded dry polish) and silicone cloths for me to give away as promotions to my clients and friends, with my Advertisement on them, naturally.

Being an automobile restoration tech for the majority of my life ... SILICONE is a curse word anywhere fine finishes are being applied.

Silicone was not allowed in any of my shops nor houses.

It took only one lesson with spray vapors from outside the shop carried in on a light breeze into the air intake of the spray booth to ruin a Mercedes refinish costing me an additional 50 hours labor over the next 10 days.

The Blitz products were quality. The Blitz polishing cloth worked excellent. I still have about 3 dozen Blitz advertising polishing cloths from about 20 years ago. Only a quick wipe with one of these if you must but engineered for jewelry.

This time I researched many methods and products. I spoke to the engineers and technicians at Blitz who recommended the silicone impregnated "gun cloths" at "THE" premium long term gun storage protector as well as shorter, easier to access storage.

Instructions were to wipe a clean gun down with a new Blitz silicone cloth, then wrap it around the gun, placing it into a gun rug.

JUST BY CHANCE, about 2 months later I needed to pull out a Volcanic ... one of the nicest I ever owned ... to find the Blitz silicone cloth looked like the shroud of Turin, except instead of having an image of Christ's face stained in to the cloth it had an image of my Volcanic steel barrel that had previously been 95% original blue.

I frantically rushed to unwrap the other 11, nice safe queens, I had prepared the same way. EVERY ONE had accumulated rust starting on the highest points, those contacting the Blitz silicone cloth.

I still have those saved somewhere and will post a picture of them when I find them. I had planned to sue Blitz but after going to an attorney found it would cost me more in time and money to sue them, that had I won, I might still be at a loss, but only greater.

Lesson 4, back to basics ... SOMETIME the hard way iS the better way.
As a last resort I went back to basics as recommended by Gary Garbrecht who swore by Corrosion-X for a fast clean or wipe for those that were not in long term storage and to prepare those that required long term storage, no matter if nickel or blue, starting with a clean antique gun.

First ... Remove the Stocks. spray some Corrosion X into the innards and mechanics.

Next, wrap the stocks "dry" in commercial plastic wrap like that used at the meat counter in the supermarket.

Next, commence to vigorously and generously rub plain old RIG in to every crevice I cold reach with my fingertips, (that was Gary's exact instructions), next coat the parts that could not be reached that way with a cotton mop or q-tip globbed up with RIG after which to wrap the entire metal frame of the gun with with a much larger size slice of Commercial plastic wrap (like Saran wrap but only thicker) trying to squeeze out as much air as possible.

and finally ... place the gun (covered with RIG and wrapped snugly in commercial quality plastic wrap) and the grips (also in plastic wrap but dry) into the zippered gun pouch or gun rug.

Summary (Finally, LOL)

I can attest, that while it was a bit of a chore to remove all the RIG on some, most after appx 10 years but a few up to 20 years later ... not ONE of those coated with RIG and wrapped in commercial plastic wrap ... had the slightest hint of any further damage from rust or the elements.

They say "time heals all wounds", I say BULL-0-NEE ! ( i cannot write the other word so use your imagination ).

I am venting today, because about a year ago, one of my nickel NM3 Targets, in 32-44 and another in .44 Russian, that were stone cold mint, very little use, no wear what so ever, came out of their 2 to 5 year storage cocoon, with the gun rugs showing dusty, light brown, outlines in the lining of the rugs.

I opened, removed contents, patted the lining wating for a small dust cloud to settle.

These were put away after a Flitz and a micro-crystalline wax job into a dry, clean, new gun rug, only to find these 2 NM3s and an early 1899 in Nickel (that was put away about 5 years ago, dry) came out of their gun rugs with fine , microscopic rust dust on it, after which, when re-Flitzed these fine grade nickel finishes are now lightly freckled with these specks of missing finish.

NO OTHER Nickel guns, e.g. 1954 pre-27, pre-war .38-44s, other early M&Ps, nor 1930s I-frames, nor anything newer with nickel finish had been affected by doing exactly the same process.

CURIOUS: It has not ever happened to a factory Nickel S&W newer than appx 1930. At worst a nickel finish gun might get smoke white sometimes, other times an older nickel-ed gun might turn to a yellowish brown hue (20 + years later).

If is something with the old quality of steel or just certain methods of nickel finish that had been engineered better over time ?

 

[sw44russ]

One enlightening observation comes from all this Sal; you have way too many Guns pal.....

 

[H Richard]

I do not have but a very few nickle guns, but I store my guns with open air all around. They are stored with the barrel down over a coated rod at 3" intervals on the wall of my gun vault. Some of my really nice guns I have done with Renaissance Wax, but the majority are wiped down with an old G96 silicone cloth when I put them up from using. I keep the temp and humidity at close to 70 degrees and 45-50% humidity. This has been for the last 11 years. I have not seen any rust, pin-pricking, etc on any of them. The guns are literally not in contact with anything. I clean the guns after using before storing them in the vault. I'm sold on the climate controlled airflow and nothing touching the surface of the guns.

 

[glowe]

The question I have never been able to answer is why so many fine vintage guns show up that were undoubtedly stored in some dark hole, shelf, leather holster, or drawer without constant heat, pre-set humidity, plastic wrap, RIG, micrystalline wax, Corrosion X, or anything else to protect them and they turned out like these examples after over a hundred years?

About all I say about your problems with nickel is to send them up to me in northern Michigan and they will be just fine. Low humidity, low temperatures, no sea salt, no hurricanes, no earthquakes, no poisonous snakes or spiders, no chiggers, no cockroaches, just clean air and mosquitoes.

My answer to your first question is nickel, since they come to me in better shape than most blued guns from the same era.

 

[rct269]

I also have too many guns--at least too many to spend what seems like a whole lot of time with weird miracle type products/techniques/storage facilities. And right up front, I don't own any nickel guns---and have no desire to own any nickle guns.

As for blue guns, here's how they are cleaned (once---on arrival), and lubricated/protected (once---on arrival) and stored---------going on thirty years----with NO problems.

Cleaned: Completely disassembled (except for barrel and action studs in Hand Ejectors) and put to soak in an automotive type parts washer filled with mineral spirits. They soak for 24 hours minimum---or until I get around to them again. Every single piece/nook/cranny/hole/space by any other name is scrubbed with whatever sort of device gets the job done---typically a variety of brushes and pipe cleaners----and an occasional Q Tip----or six or eight----then rinsed (mineral spirits) and blown dry with high pressure DRY air.

Lubricated/Protected: Everything is slathered with WAY TOO MUCH CorrosionX and left to sit/soak/whatever it does for a spell ----------24 hours---or until I get around to them again. Then they are blown as dry as I can get them with more high pressure DRY air----------------there's a film remaining on everything.

Then they get put back together, and all exterior surfaces are wiped with Hoppes #9 to get the CorrosionX off----and dried/polished with cotton polishing cloths----and put on the shelf.

The shelf is one of thirteen in a display cabinet that's not quite eight feet high and a tad over six feet long. The cabinet is not air tight----which is to say the interior and everything in it gets dusty over time. The interior and everything in it gets vacuumed about twice a year. I've had this cabinet going on thirty years. More than a few of the guns in the cabinet have been in there going on thirty years------with NO problems.

I had a nickel gun once---for maybe 5-6 years. It got the exact same treatment--with the exact same results.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[model3sw]

Ralph, I have long thought that perhaps the chemical in which some of the gun zip cases had been cleaned or prepared may (over time) may react unfavorably on the finishes.

It is ONLY the older, original nickel, guns that had been affected. When i tell you I put the 3 I mention away in "perfect" or near new condition finish

I can reason with a nickel finish that started with a defect ending up with veins from the oil walking under the finish from the bare area but I cannot reason with tight, perfect, original nickel finished guns turning up with tiny rust freckles that are actually THROUGH the finish. Why didn't the whole finish do the same ? Why just the tiny freckle patter ?

Do you think it had something to do with the lesser quality of the original steel over time ?

I think I will take them all out of the rugs and let them breath, like you suggest. It can even be a matter of no or poor ventilation as there is not in a tightly sealed safe. Thank you.

 

[model3sw]

The question I have never been able to answer is why so many fine vintage guns show up that were undoubtedly stored in some dark hole, shelf, leather holster, or drawer without constant heat, pre-set humidity, plastic wrap, RIG, micrystalline wax, Corrosion X, or anything else to protect them and they turned out like these examples after over a hundred years?

About all I say about your problems with nickel is to send them up to me in northern Michigan and they will be just fine. Low humidity, low temperatures, no sea salt, no hurricanes, no earthquakes, no poisonous snakes or spiders, no chiggers, no cockroaches, just clean air and mosquitoes.

My answer to your first question is nickel, since they come to me in better shape than most blued guns from the same era.

Several years back an older gent brought me a New Haven 31 cal Volcanic that had vacuum sealed in a commercial packing machine of the 1960s vintage. When he first brought it to me, I was cautious to unseal it as the old plastic was still vacuum sealed and seemed to be adhered to the German Silver finish and blue barrel.

We set another time, at my house, to carefully unseal it warning that I would not be responsible if the German Silver peeled off with the plastic. Much to my surprise, once cut the plastic released with no damage to the finish.

This made me think about vacuum sealing for long term storage as a reasonable choice as it would prevent any air or moisture in, you can still see the gun and features clearly, and prevented scratching from being stored with others ... e.g. no tap or knock damage.

Even if there were oil or some remnants of a cleaning chemical, the air-tight seal would prevent any action from occurring or so it would reason but I have reasoned with decisions like this prior.

I wonder ....

PS: I bought that Volcanic

 

[model3sw]

I do not have but a very few nickle guns, but I store my guns with open air all around. They are stored with the barrel down over a coated rod at 3" intervals on the wall of my gun vault. Some of my really nice guns I have done with Renaissance Wax, but the majority are wiped down with an old G96 silicone cloth when I put them up from using. I keep the temp and humidity at close to 70 degrees and 45-50% humidity. This has been for the last 11 years. I have not seen any rust, pin-pricking, etc on any of them. The guns are literally not in contact with anything. I clean the guns after using before storing them in the vault. I'm sold on the climate controlled airflow and nothing touching the surface of the guns.

Do you have a ventilation system set up in the vault ?

 

[DesmoEd]

I use the storage boxes sold by Robert at Protecta-gun

Either nickel or blue, I just wipe them down with an oil soaked rag and wrap them in the wax paper he provides. Then box and stack em in the safe. Never had an issue doing it this way.

I think nickel guns stand the test of time better, proof is in the pudding when you look at etched panel 44-40 Frontier Colts. Blued pistols with a nice surviving panel are much rarer than nickel ones and are they are always priced accordingly.

 

[JSR III]

First of all you state micro-crystalline wax, what brand?

Secondly, I Renaissance wax my guns and store them openly in a glass walled old jewelers case in an unheated room with no dehumidifier and no golden rods. My guns are fine.

 

[rct269]

"Rust particles through the finish" and "lesser quality of original steel" don't go together in my mind. Given the lesser quality of the steel, oxygen is required to create the rust. Where'd the oxygen come from? It had to come through the nickle---again in my mind, so the nickel's at fault. This indisputable bit of logic comes from MY mind. I suspect there are other minds that can dispute my logic in about two seconds flat----and give us the correct answer.

Then again, I learned something about oxygen not too long ago. It will either pass through or be absorbed by rubber (or whatever tire are made of now)---explaining why tires (with no leaks) lose pressure over time---and nitrogen doesn't do either. Now all this may simply be hype from those who want to sell us nitrogen for our tires----much akin to the folks who make fishing tackle. Most folks will tell you fishing tackle is made to catch fish. The more thoughtful folks might think it's made to sell to fishermen.

As for me, I only know what works for me. I don't know why other routines don't work. I also don't know why folks spend gazillions of dollars on these guns of ours, only to hide them away where they can't be seen/fondled/played with. How does one enjoy that?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

Sal, I was somewhat serious about sea salt possibility in Southern Florida. I was once on a project to determine why buildings with a certain construction additives made by my company was purported to be responsible for corrosion on many buildings throughout Florida. This particular problem was aesthetic and not structural and often exhibited itself as small pin-point spotting of finished metal surfaces inside and outside of buildings. After several rounds of testing, it was found that there was salt content on the metal, concrete, floors, walls, etc.. Further testing noted that there was salt residue on everything around the exterior and inside the buildings. Very small amounts, but present. These buildings were inland, coastal, up and down the state. It was explained that storms carry salt water far inland and humidity can carry salts inside buildings as well.

So, could this be the reason for some of your problems? I know a finger print left on untreated steel will rust if left there for a period of time due to the salt in your system. If this is possible, would a sealing system using a vacuum sealer work? Depends.

Some plastic is made from Saran and other plastics that contain a vinyl chloride monomer. This material can break down over time and liberate chlorides. There is PVC, Saran, CPE (chlorinated Polyethylene), and others. Will this degradation happen in a year, a decade, a century, no way of knowing for sure, but if it does, chlorides will be released.

 

[glowe]

Ralph, I think your comments are absolutely true if one more compound is added - water. Most sources will state that rust cannot form without both oxygen and water. One such explanation states that iron in oxygen environments corrodes by forming iron oxide and water is the catalyst in the process of rusting, therefore you cannot get rust without water. Of course humidity is water, so it is almost impossible to eliminate all sources of water from any environment.

 

[model3sw]

Sal, I was somewhat serious about sea salt possibility in Southern Florida. I was once on a project to determine why buildings with a certain construction additives made by my company was purported to be responsible for corrosion on many buildings throughout Florida. This particular problem was aesthetic and not structural and often exhibited itself as small pin-point spotting of finished metal surfaces inside and outside of buildings. After several rounds of testing, it was found that there was salt content on the metal, concrete, floors, walls, etc.. Further testing noted that there was salt residue on everything around the exterior and inside the buildings. Very small amounts, but present. These buildings were inland, coastal, up and down the state. It was explained that storms carry salt water far inland and humidity can carry salts inside buildings as well.

So, could this be the reason for some of your problems? I know a finger print left on untreated steel will rust if left there for a period of time due to the salt in your system. If this is possible, would a sealing system using a vacuum sealer work? Depends.

Some plastic is made from Saran and other plastics that contain a vinyl chloride monomer. This material can break down over time and liberate chlorides. There is PVC, Saran, CPE (chlorinated Polyethylene), and others. Will this degradation happen in a year, a decade, a century, no way of knowing for sure, but if it does, chlorides will be released.

The salt / salt air could be an issue if I were closer to the water but I am several miles inland plus my house is climate controlled (with the heating rod running) 24/7/365.

There are some other that collect for the short term, then there are others, like us, that are in it for the long term.

It seems I've followed all required (to excessive) maintenance and care but I still have this problem with only a few, that all happen to be older nickel only. Further, just considering the pristine, tight and higher grades 97%+ of those 100 years old and older. for example, my nickel .38-44 HDs are as nice now as when I tucked them away 15-20 years ago. Further, all my blued oldies are just as nice now as when I put them away.

I am very careful with body salt and fingerprints. Nothing every gets put away without a spray and a wipe at minimum.

Thank you all for your input. Most appreciated.

 

[glowe]

I store my S&Ws like H Richard, in an open air environment. I have purchased lots of gun seven-gun wire holders from Midway USA in the past and use them on shelves front and back rows with the barrel angled down. I also have a heater in the safe that is on all the time. I then have 2 large hydrosorbent silica gel desiccant boxes that I oven bake about twice a year. Probably both are 5 pounds each, so last a long time between drying out in the oven.

 

[gmborkovic]

I live in South Florida about two blocks from the Atlantic Ocean.
Salt air, and humidity, I got plenty of it. I have some nice blued and nickel guns. I dont trust any of the products or techniques to protect from moisture. I have been selling some and shipping up North. I have noticed that case color frames and parts really need a lot of attention. I just check the ones I have kept, and shoot and enjoy them. Im to old for this ****. Best.

 

[model3sw]

First of all you state micro-crystalline wax, what brand?

Secondly, I Renaissance wax my guns and store them openly in a glass walled old jewelers case in an unheated room with no dehumidifier and no golden rods. My guns are fine.

IT was e Renaissance wax but any quality micro-crystalline wax would be as good. Some swear by pure Carnauba wax, which I keep a commercial tin for the fine furniture and / or woods. Not the auto car wax type with additives.

I just watched a Midway video wherein the owner shows he used Renaissance wax to clean, Polish & protect. I just learned something new. I didn't think a pure wax had any cleaning properties.

Also, just ordered a gallon jug of Corrosion-x.

This AM I opened my 2 x 1st order NM3 Australians that I had wiped with Corrosion X in 1999 and just placed in a rug. Then, my NM3 Australian from the 2nd order that I had also coated with Corrosion-X then wrapped in Commercial quality plastic wrap also in 1999.

While the plastic wrap had gotten a bit brittle (but not open nor decomposed) these pieces are exactly how I put it away in 1999. They all thin finish, wear and tiny other spots, but otherwise in superb condition. I unwrapped them to find the same condition I put it away.

 

[rct269]

Get a spray container for your CorrosionX application. Otherwise you're limited to wiping it on (can't get into nooks and crannies), or dunking (messy, risk of contaminating your supply).

I have a 16 oz. spray container-----have had it for a looooooooooooong time (and still some left)----long enough for the spray nozzle to die. They sent another one to me-------free---for nothing (as they say).

Ralph Tremaine

 

[model3sw]

Get a spray container for your CorrosionX application. Otherwise you're limited to wiping it on (can't get into nooks and crannies), or dunking (messy, risk of contaminating your supply).

I have a 16 oz. spray container-----have had it for a looooooooooooong time (and still some left)----long enough for the spray nozzle to die. They sent another one to me-------free---for nothing (as they say).

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph, I have a 16 pz aerosol but very unimpressed with the sprayer. it shoot straight lines of liquid, no spray pattern at all. As a point of cost the average 16oz (where much gets wasted) is about $25.00. ($200.00 per gal that way) I got a gallon delivered for $88.88. I have a variety of sprayers and pumps applicators but just saw a device that screws onto any plastic container, with a pump rod, to build up pressure, has an adjustable spray nozzle. .

 

[rct269]

Ralph, I have a 16 pz aerosol but very unimpressed with the sprayer. it shoot straight lines of liquid, no spray pattern at all. As a point of cost the average 16oz (where much gets wasted) is about $25.00. ($200.00 per gal that way) I got a gallon delivered for $88.88. I have a variety of sprayers and pumps applicators but just saw a device that screws onto any plastic container, with a pump rod, to build up pressure, has an adjustable spray nozzle. .

Yours with an adjustable nozzle sounds like a plan. Mine is a plastic bottle w/pump sprayer---started out spraying---degraded to shooting straight lines---prompting my request for a new pump/sprayer.

RT