Do NICS checks come with check against stolen guns?

[Inusuit]

A description of the gun, including the serial number is on the 4473 form. Therefore the ATF knows who has what gun. As far as I can see, that's the same thing as registering the gun. The ATF has the records, you know they're keeping them somewhere forever.

I don't think this is correct. As I understand it, the 4473 form is retained by the FFL holder and doesn't go to ATF unless the dealer goes out of business. Then his records are transferred to the ATF.

Is is possible to use the information on the 4473 to trace a firearm to the purchaser? Probably, but I don't see this as the same as registration. I believe the ATF is required to delete the background check request after a certain amount of time. Whether they do or not probably depends on your level of conspiracy theory.

Irrelevant to me as my Concealed Carry Permit obviates the necessity for a background check at the point of purchase.

 

[rburg]

There are some problems with all this. Does anyone have any idea how the UCC plays into it? A dealer in a business line can transfer good title to a buyer if the transaction is in the normal course of business. And of course he has no knowledge or indication the item may be stolen. You as a good faith buyer can then rely on the item being yours. It just promotes commerce.

Someone claiming a gun was stolen and had a certain serial number really isn't proof of anything. That victim should be required to prove, as in a paper trail from the past, that they bought the item and had good title when it vanished.

If you bought a gun from a gun dealer (federally licensed and all), then you've got a pretty good claim to ownership. Just because a sheriff out in Podunk took a report of a theft isn't much proof. When someone cleans out your house, the sheriff in good faith takes the report. But they never require proof of ownership. Now we're saying that shaky report is golden proof. I'm not so sure.

If the government wanted to set up shop at gun shows and run numbers and people as a public service (remember, the public is paying their salaries and expenses), it would be great. But that would be a service and help to gun owners. Something the government (at all levels) has no interest in doing.

 

[cmort666]

There are some problems with all this. Does anyone have any idea how the UCC plays into it? A dealer in a business line can transfer good title to a buyer if the transaction is in the normal course of business. And of course he has no knowledge or indication the item may be stolen. You as a good faith buyer can then rely on the item being yours. It just promotes commerce.

Someone claiming a gun was stolen and had a certain serial number really isn't proof of anything. That victim should be required to prove, as in a paper trail from the past, that they bought the item and had good title when it vanished.

In my case, I was just lucky that I'd traded that Colt for something else years previous to my notification that it was stolen. By that time, it was between the BATF, the FFL from whom I bought it, and the FFL to whom I traded it.

 

[Steve912]

There were articles in general media and NRA periodicals last year, about the increase in firearm purchases. A few records were set with NICs checks, and the articles noted that more guns were probably sold than the raw number of checks, as "a single check could have approved multiple firearm purchases" by a single individual. That would suggest there's no gun-specific info on the check.

 

[Ben_hutcherson]

Has anyone ever listened to a dealer call in a NICS?

Once they furnish your biographical information, they state "Transfer a long gun" or "transfer a handgun." Assuming they get a proceed, they get a confirmation number that they write on the 4473.

With computerized 4473s now being common, this is a bit less transparent but by Federal law the only type of information communicated is the type of gun.

The BATFE does get specific information if you purchase two or more handguns from the same dealer within 7 days of each other(via the multiple purchase form).

Otherwise, however, 4473s are kept in the dealers' possession for 20 years or until they go out of business. The ones from an out of business dealer-I'm told-go to a warehouse that looks about like that pictured above .

 

[WR Moore]

Just to throw another log on the fire, not every state reports stolen stuff or criminal records to the NCIC. Or at least they didn't.

 

[rburg]

J, not every state reports stolen stuff or criminal records to the NCIC.

And to pour some gasoline on that same fire, the reported records aren't really checked for accuracy. I'd guess that job doesn't go to the senior detectives. Just for more confusion, I'd bet half the yahoo's who do have their serial numbers don't have or understand the model numbers of the gun. As we see sometimes with newcomers here, they mistake the caliber for the manufacturer. The Spanish particularly tried to obscure the maker, hoping somebody would buy their copy because it said S&W.

 

[jag312]

Yeah. Looks like this:

According to one of my friends in ATF, the records retention warehouse looks exactly like that. Also, some records are mixed up between dealers. It is a mess.

The records in the NFA Branch are just as bad. They used to keep records of NFA firearms on 3X5 cards stored in shoe boxes. Records of early registrations are not complete. Some of the 3X5 cards have been lost or misplaced.

 

[Muss Muggins]

According to one of my friends in ATF, the records retention warehouse looks exactly like that. Also, some records are mixed up between dealers. It is a mess.

The records in the NFA Branch are just as bad. They used to keep records of NFA firearms on 3X5 cards stored in shoe boxes. Records of early registrations are not complete. Some of the 3X5 cards have been lost or misplaced.

Seen 'em both. I wasn't kidding . . .

 

[cmort666]

According to one of my friends in ATF, the records retention warehouse looks exactly like that. Also, some records are mixed up between dealers. It is a mess.

The records in the NFA Branch are just as bad. They used to keep records of NFA firearms on 3X5 cards stored in shoe boxes. Records of early registrations are not complete. Some of the 3X5 cards have been lost or misplaced.

As I recall, some people were falsely prosecuted back in the '80s or '90s because of faulty records. People with registered NFA items were falsely prosecuted because there were no records of the items.

Out of this arose the Clinton era scandal of the offical BATF training video in which agents were instructed to lie about the accuracy of the NFA record keeping system. They were told to testify under oath that it was 100% accurate... even though the video admitted that it was not.

 

[Muss Muggins]

As I recall, some people were falsely prosecuted back in the '80s or '90s because of faulty records. People with registered NFA items were falsely prosecuted because there were no records of the items.

Out of this arose the Clinton era scandal of the offical BATF training video in which agents were instructed to lie about the accuracy of the NFA record keeping system. They were told to testify under oath that it was 100% accurate... even though the video admitted that it was not.

Never miss a chance to bash cops, do you? Pictures or a link, or it didn't happen . . .

 

[cmort666]

Never miss a chance to bash cops, do you? Pictures or a link, or it didn't happen . . .

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO6BQVAZpwU"]Perjury Training Video[/ame]

 

[Muss Muggins]

Perjury Training Video

Did you actually listen critically to what the man said? The errors were always to the accused's favor. He says that in like the first 40 seconds. I would suspect that people went unconvicted who should have . . .

By the way, I'm out here, before I earn a point or two . . .

 

[cmort666]

Did you actually listen critically to what the man said? The errors were always to the accused's favor. He says that in like the first 40 seconds. I would suspect that people went unconvicted who should have . . .

By the way, I'm out here, before I earn a point or two . . .

He instructed agents to say that the registry is 100% accurate, knowing it was not. That's suborning perjury.

BATF officials subsequently apologized for the making of the video. Apparently they didn't listen "critically" either.

 

[neorebel]

In my experience as a LEO I have found most people who have their firearms stolen have no idea what the serial numbers are. I keep a running record myself. If you don't know the serial number, you can't prove it's yours. Unless you have some unique identification on it. (I can't wait to see the results of this comment..lol.) I have bought so many weapons over the years from reputable LGS and NEVER had one come up stolen. If one came up stolen it would be their responsibility not yours anyway. No responsible LGS would even argue with you. I don't know what the ratio of new guns sold is to used guns sold but if I was betting man, I would think new outsells used, but I really don't know.
If in doubt call the local PD or SO and ask them to run the serial number before you buy it. They may do that for you.

I did buy a Glock 19 in 1995 from a friend on mine on the Army EOD. When I sold it a year later to trade up, it came back stolen. It had been stolen from his vehicle in San Francisco, California and recovered from a robbery crime scene. (The guy ran off and left it.) I had to call the San Francisco PD and remind them they forgot to take it out of the system as stolen. I was a LEO, and we got a laugh out of it at least. Then I arrested him for possession of stolen weapon....no just kidding.

 

[hoc9sw]

There was a segment on one of the news shows, 60 minutes I think, and they visited the warehouse and talked to the very few employees, some of whom were retiring. Did not leave a good feeling about their resources to find other than the most high-profile weapons.

Yes, it did look like the infinite sea of boxes.

 

[jag312]

As I recall, some people were falsely prosecuted back in the '80s or '90s because of faulty records. People with registered NFA items were falsely prosecuted because there were no records of the items

J. Curtis Earl, who basically was not a nice guy, was being prosecuted for having unregistered machineguns. Earl may have been an Adam Henry, but was not stupid to have anything illegal. ATF claimed that some of his guns were unregistered because there were no 3X5 cards for them and therefore illegal. Earl got great pleasure showing the original IRS registration paperwork in court. He made ATF look like a bunch of incompetent fools that couldn't keep their NFA records accurate. This was told to me by an ATF Agent who was not involved to the case and was very critical of how the case was handled.

 

[cmort666]

J. Curtis Earl, who basically was not a nice guy, was being prosecuted for having unregistered machineguns. Earl may have been an Adam Henry, but was not stupid to have anything illegal. ATF claimed that some of his guns were unregistered because there were no 3X5 cards for them and therefore illegal. Earl got great pleasure showing the original IRS registration paperwork in court. He made ATF look like a bunch of incompetent fools that couldn't keep their NFA records accurate. This was told to me by an ATF Agent who was not involved to the case and was very critical of how the case was handled.

My best armorer in Korea in '81 was an NFA collector. I believe he was falsely prosecuted, and later exonerated after the scandal broke. He might even have done jail time. I'll bet that anybody who used that "100% accurate" claim against him didn't do any time.

Speaking of J. Curtis Earl, I had one of his catalogs when I was in grade school in the '60s. It really sparked my interest in machine guns.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Unfortunately, after conversations with the DA, the only recourse I would have against the dealer would be if I could prove he knew it was stolen when he sold it to me.

He made restitution a part of any parole hearing for the perp, but I know I'll never see a nickle of my money.

I am not sure this is correct

He took your money in return for good title, which he did not pass to you

 

[rbrbrb6]

I bought a used Ruger Blackhawk several years ago and when it arrived at my FFL and we did the paperwork and background check it came back as stolen in Seattle over thirty years ago. The told my FFL to hold the gun until the local police could come and get it. All that occurred and I obviously contacted the east coast seller who had records showing HE had bought it through an FFL and that background checks were done at that time but he offered to refund my money right away. I told him to hold off until we heard back from the police and after a few weeks they told me to come get the gun. They had contacted the Seattle police but the case was sold it was closed and all actual records gone. I picked the gun up and used it for parts which was what I bought it for in the first place. In this case, the background check did catch it as stolen.