CC only revolvers.

... in recent years, with shootings in theaters, large parties, or night clubs perhaps it's useful consider longer ranges... it might be useful to consider the very unlikely need for a longer range defensive shot when selecting your carry gun. Perhaps, if you want to stick with J frames, a 3" with adjustable sights.

Not quite 3" but I find my 340 Pro Series a better choice when out of the range of the laser equipped 360 AirLite. The night sights on it are not adjustable without a sight pusher, but I have found them to be point of aim from the factory so it is not an issue.

2Vt9NLG.jpg


The weight of the 340 makes belt carry as backup to the AirLite AISW a good choice for comfort. If carried ISWB weak side along with the AirLite AISW I'll load both with .38 Hornady Critical Defense loads. 357 magnums out of a 2" barrel is like a flash bang in your hand. Followup shots are quicker running 38's as recoil is a lot milder.

When I want a long range shot and stick with revolvers my model 69 with both laser grip and FastFire III on top the best choice.

mKvnTnX.jpg


The big 44 actually conceals pretty well in the holster shown above, as long as I can wear a cover garment. An open untucked shirt does well to conceal the 44 in warmer seasons and does not look out of the ordinary in casual environments.

digiroc
 
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When I first started thinking about CCW, I figured there was no need to defend yourself from someone beyond bad breath distance.

After all you don't get mugged by someone from 75 feet away.

But in recent years, with shootings in theaters, large parties, or night clubs perhaps it's useful consider longer ranges.

At least practicing at 25 yards or even a bit more seems worthwhile.

And it might be useful to consider the very unlikely need for a longer range defensive shot when selecting your carry gun. Perhaps, if you want to stick with J frames, a 3" with adjustable sights.

Three thoughts on this:

1) Zero distance with a self defense handgun

People often ask what distance they should zero a handgun - 5 yards, 10 yards, 25 yards - as if it actually made a difference.

Handgun cartridges are not flat shooting, but even at a lowly 700 fps, a .38 special isn't going to drop much in the time it takes to travel 25 yards.

The angle of departure also makes a big difference at short ranges, and most front sight heights on a handgun will vary from .5" to .8"

In practical terms this means my Model 66 with a .8" sight height zeroed at 5 yards with 700 fps 158 gr .38 Special ammo (about as slow as it gets) it will print .5" high at 10 yards, 1.0" high at 25 yards, .9" low at 45 yards and 1.8" low at 50 yards.

If I zero at 10 yards, it will be .3" low at 5 yards, .3" high at 25 yards, .8" low at 30 yards and 4.4" low at 50 yards.

In however I zero it at 25 yards, it will be .3" high at 15 yards, and .4" low at 30 yards, and will be 3.9" low at 50 yards.

If I zero it at 50 yards, it will be about 1.0" high at 10 yards, 2" high at 25 yards, and about 2" low at 60 yards.

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The purpose of adjustable sights on a handgun is to allow that handgun to be re-regulated for different loads. Most folks understand that a lighter, faster bullet will shoot lower in a handgun than a heavier, slower bullet as the muzzle rises more prior to the bullet exiting with the heavier, slower load, increasing the angle of departure. Most .38s and .357s for example are regulated for 158 gr loads and will shoot a couple inches lower at normal social shooting distances with a 125 gr load.

If you've got fixed sights, the load selection will largely determine point of impact and 'zero' distance.

----

For self defense shooting purposes it makes no significant difference what distance you choose to zero a handgun as long as it's somewhere between 5 and 50 yards. The good news is that even if your handgun does not have adjustable sights and shoots a couple inches off point of aim at 10 yards, it won't matter in a self defense shoot at normal ranges where you are shooting center of mass.

-----

Personally, I zero my adjustable sight snub nosed revolvers at 5 yards as it will put me within 1" of my line of sight from 0 to 45 yards. I'll zero my 4" and 6" revolvers at 50 yards, mostly because I like to shoot them at 25 and 50 yards, and I can easily hold 2" low at 25 yards and hold dead on at 50 yards. And being 1" high at 10 yards is a non issue in a self defense shoot.

2) Snub nosed revolvers are capable of greater accuracy than most people who shoot them.

People equate short barrel revolvers with "inaccurate" but that's not the case.

A short barrel revolver has a commensurately short sight radius, but that just makes sight alignment more critical. A given amount of alignment error with a 3" sight radius will have twice as much error on the target as the same amount of alignment error with a 6" sight radius.

In "short", that just means you need to be more precise in your sight alignment if/when accuracy matters with a short barrel revolver, but it does not mean that you cannot shoot accurately with a snub nose.

Under ideal lighting conditions, the Mk 1 Mod 0 human eyeball can detect differences in width as small as .005", and well made iron sights are designed to create a sharp edged high contrast sight picture where you can compare the white space between the black sight elements.

With my 2.5" Model 66 with it's 4.3" sigh radius, a .005" sight error produces only a 1" error at 25 yards. In if you double the error to .01" that's only 2" at 25 yards, or 1" at 12.5 yards.

3) Lighting is important.

As noted above accuracy with a short barrel revolver is attainable if you've got sufficient grip and trigger control to allow you to maintain a good sight picture - but that sight picture is very light dependent.

In aggregate, police officers in the average police department demonstrate hit percentages that are only in the 15-25% range depending on engagement range, lighting conditions and the number of officers involved.

Even the best trained officers suffer a performance decline in low light. For example, Baltimore County PD has some of the best training in the country and over a 13 year period achieved a 64% hit percentage in daylight shootings. But in low light that hit percentage dropped to 45%.

As an aside, many people claim that police officers do not use their sights in real world shoots, and many officers will report that they do not remember using their sights. However, the fact that hit percentages decrease in low light suggests otherwise, whether they remember it or not.

A well trained officer will at a minimum place the front sight on the assailant and with sufficient practice and a well developed grip and muscle memory, the rear sight will be well enough aligned all on it's own for accurate combat shooting.

If you're one of those folks who don't think training to use the sights matters, you might want to re-think it.


Range also plays a factor with the hit rate at ranges over 7 yards being only about half the hit rate at less than 7 yards.

Low light also plays a factor in mistake of fact shootings. About 25% of all shoots by law enforcement officers are mistake of fact shootings where the officer thought a weapon was present but where one was not ultimately found. About half of mistake of fact shootings involved the suspect making furtive movements and about 75% of mistake of fact shootings occur in low light situations.

You need to be aware that while the courts give officers a great deal of attitude in a mistake of fact shooting given their role in the community. However, as an armed citizen you will receive absolutely no latitude at all - mistake of fact shootings occur in armed citizen self defense shoots, they just are not called that when the individual is charged or sued. Officers also have Dept. attorneys and liability coverage behind them that you won't have, so you will be fully liable for each round you fire.

Adding it all together

A shooting in a theater will create several conditions that are not conducive to accuracy:

- You're going to be shooting under extreme stress where you will devolve to your lowest level of MASTERED training. People are notorious for over estimating their level of mastered training.

- You're probably going to be shooting at ranges over 7 yards.

- You're going to be shooting in low light conditions, which will degrade accuracy and increase the potential of a mistake of fact shooting.

- You're probably going to be shooting in an environment with lots of bystanders and the shooter will probably be moving among them.

If you are serious about training for this type of scenario, you need to train not just at longer ranges, but also in low light conditions and you need to consider getting a set of tritium night sights to improve the low light sight picture, or at a minimum get a tritium front sight that you can place on the target.
 
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My 12+1 "revolver" ...

... Recently upgraded the carry selection with a 3853... I think of it as a slim 8-shot DAO 9mm revolver:
3953.JPG

I too find the DAO 3rd gen Smiths very revolver like in their operation. Here is my 6946 DAO when 8 shots may not be enough:

Yx0WHvS.jpg


A bit harder to carry concealed with the double stack magazines. but it becomes a 17 shot "revolver" on reload with aftermarket magazines.

digiroc
 
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Three thoughts on this...

Very well put BB57! As statistically 70% of muggings and related attacks come during hours of darkness the importance of low light defensive gunplay becomes critical in armed self defense.

This is why I equip my defensive weapons with laser and or night sights. I have found that a laser equipped weapon is the best option for a fast response in low light, especially at close ranges.

Putting a laser on center mass of a threat can have a deterrent effect and may settle things without firing a shot. Stopping an attack is the goal, and if it can be done without deadly force that is the optimal outcome.

Night sights are second best option for low light situations. Not much deterrent effect on an attacker, but accurate aimed fire is paramount in stopping an attack when the shooting starts.

Having a shooting range in my backyard gives me a chance to train in low light conditions. Home defense will likely be needed in low light conditions. I keep my home lit well enough for target recognition at nightime, but accurate fire is still enhanced with lasers or at a minimum, night sights.

digiroc
 
When I first started thinking about CCW, I figured there was no need to defend yourself from someone beyond bad breath distance.

After all you don't get mugged by someone from 75 feet away.

But in recent years, with shootings in theaters, large parties, or night clubs perhaps it's useful consider longer ranges.

At least practicing at 25 yards or even a bit more seems worthwhile.

And it might be useful to consider the very unlikely need for a longer range defensive shot when selecting your carry gun. Perhaps, if you want to stick with J frames, a 3" with adjustable sights.

Everything is a trade-off. To gain something, you will usually lose something.

The primary reason I carry a snub revolver is due to its ECQ advantages and it's suitability for the most common civilian defense situations. By going with a 3" J-frame with exposed hammer, I would lose many of those advantages. It would be a case of trading away advantages in likely scenarios to possibly gain a very slight benefit(not sure it even would be) in extremely unlikely ones.

If I thought encountering terrorists or active shooters were remotely probable and I was preparing for such an occurance, I for sure wouldn't want to engage them with a 5 shot 3" snub revolver.
 
The close quarters advantage of any revolver is negated if the attacker grabs the cylinder of your weapon.

The ability to use the bobbed hammer of my 360PD AirLite gives me a huge advantage when the attack comes to grappling distance. Once cocked the gun will fire even if grabbed. If it goes of early and unexpectedly in a high stress encounter it's not so bad, and just might end the attack sooner I also like the ability to ride the hammer on reholster.

I don't think one inch of barrel length will make much difference other than give better accuracy with a longer sight radius, even my 4.25" model 69 comes out pretty fast from my Don Hulm front break holster.

8Ot175U.jpg


The above shown model 69 as equipped would be my handgun of choice in Mister X's last statement:

Mister X: "If I thought encountering terrorists or active shooters were remotely probable and I was preparing for such an occurance, I for sure wouldn't want to engage them with a 5 shot 3" snub revolver."

With backup of one of my .40 S&W double stacks or this dandy laser equipped 17+1 9mm:

BoxF5dc.jpg


digiroc
 
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The close quarters advantage of any revolver is negated if the attacker grabs the cylinder of your weapon.

Rotate your gun hand in the opposite direction of cylinder rotation while pulling the trigger.
 
The close quarters advantage of any revolver is negated if the attacker grabs the cylinder of your weapon.

The ability to use the bobbed hammer of my 360PD AirLite gives me a huge advantage when the attack comes to grappling distance. Once cocked the gun will fire even if grabbed. If it goes of early and unexpectedly in a high stress encounter it's not so bad, and just might end the attack sooner I also like the ability to ride the hammer on reholster.

I don't think one inch of barrel length will make much difference other than give better accuracy with a longer sight radius

That is a pretty common response, but it is fairly difficult to grab ahold of and stop the cylinder of a snub revolver from functioning during a dynamic scenario(a real defense encounter or FoF training). It usually takes two hands on the weapon and a dominant control position. I've seen it happen a couple of times in classes, but every time it was big Officer vs a small one and always on the ground or backed into a corner. Any gun would have been rendered useless in these instances once that type of control was not prevented.

The rotating technique ContinentalOp does work and would probably free the gun up anyway.

I would never recommend preemptively cocking a revolver in the context you outlined. And in those exteme close-quarter scenarios where you let an attacker get his hands on the weapon, that cocked hammer can be obstructed or entagled in clothing much easier than the cylinder can be grabbed and stopped from rotating. Plus that hammer acts as a nice little leverage hook for the BG to take advantage of.

That extra one inch of barrel will slow draw slightly, but my point about it was that it greatly enhances leverage for someone attempting a disarm. Pocket carry is severity negatively impacted as well.

These things are effectively tested via force on force training.
 
After a long period of vacillating on going back to a revolver for CCW I did it about 2 1/2 months ago. This is for what I call casual carry, it's real easy to just grab it in a pocket holster and go right out the door. For more serious adventures like going into the cities or a problem going on I take a XDS.45 carried in an ISWB.

With that out of the way, the casual gun is a LCR.38. It's small and light and with a good pocket holster it just disappears in a pants pocket.

I have a few 2'' I could carry but I rather like this little Ruger.

I also have belt holsters & ISWB that I could use. My other 2'' choices were a Colt DS, an older shrouded hammer Cobra, a 642 and a 60. Back in the 70s early 80s I carried my 60 for a long time as my only carry gun!
 
I only carry hicap autoloaders when I need to venture into city slicker territory


Otherwise I carry wheelguns.
 
If it goes of early and unexpectedly in a high stress encounter it's not so bad, and just might end the attack sooner

I would not want to be in any situation where my gun might "go off" [sic] early and unexpectedly. If a prosecutor asks why I fired that round I want to be able to honestly articulate that my life was in danger and I pulled the trigger to stop the threat, not that I had a negligent discharge because I'd cocked the hammer before I was ready to shoot.
 
These revolvers are some I would choose from to edc.



S&W 638-3 .38 spl.+p
CA Bulldog .44 spl.
Taurus 605 .357 Mag.
S&W 442-2 .38 spl.+p
Taurus 85 UL .38 spl.+p
Ruger SP101 .357 Mag. in center.

Nice collection. If those were my options I'd carry the SP101 in an IWB holster and the 442 in a pocket, plus a couple speedloaders. Not many situations that you couldn't resolve with that setup.
 
For every move there is a counter move ...

Rotate your gun hand in the opposite direction of cylinder rotation while pulling the trigger.

Yes, that is the counter move for an attempted revolver disarm. For every move there is a counter move. Hypothetical situations rarely reflect the diversity of real world situations.

Looking at it from the other side, that it is you unarmed, facing a revolver wielding attacker stupid enough to get that close before he shoots you.

The move would be gripping the weapon by the cylinder while at the same time diverting the muzzle and delivering a debilitating blow to the body part of your choice, to the best target of opportunity. (upper-cut, palm strike, throat punch, knee to the groin, ect ... ).

So, your having the ability to twist out of the grasp may be impaired by the combined effects of the skill and ability of your attacker. That's why if I have drawn my weapon I have already made the decision to use it so I'm not going to want to wait until I'm tackled to try to stop the attack.

Any handgun is a stand off weapon, but I will concede that if an attack ends up with full contact grappling a snubby would be the best handgun to have, although a good knife would be better.

digiroc
 
Why I like hammers ...

I would not want to be in any situation where my gun might "go off" [sic] early and unexpectedly. If a prosecutor asks why I fired that round I want to be able to honestly articulate that my life was in danger and I pulled the trigger to stop the threat, not that I had a negligent discharge because I'd cocked the hammer before I was ready to shoot.

If I cock the hammer I am prepared to shoot, my sights are aligned and I'm good to go.

Just as you, if a prosecutor asks why I fired that round I want to be able to honestly articulate that my life was in danger and I pulled the trigger to stop the threat.

Cocking the hammer is the last audible warning, letting you know that I am prepared to shoot. I have heard that sound in a darkened room and believe me it stopped me in my tracks.

digiroc
 
If I cock the hammer I am prepared to shoot, my sights are aligned and I'm good to go.

Just as you, if a prosecutor asks why I fired that round I want to be able to honestly articulate that my life was in danger and I pulled the trigger to stop the threat.

Cocking the hammer is the last audible warning, letting you know that I am prepared to shoot. I have heard that sound in a darkened room and believe me it stopped me in my tracks.

digiroc

I can see your point, but my concern is that you might get that "unexpected" discharge after the bad guy has already stopped in his tracks. I would not want to try to lower the hammer while holding a suspect at gunpoint.
 
I would not try to lower the hammer, but I would exercise trigger control.

Single action trigger break is supposed to be unexpected. If he stopped advancing before the hammer drops he has just become a stationary target. My belief in his intent to cause harm is enough to justify a more permanent stoppage.

digiroc
 
mKvnTnX.jpg


The big 44 actually conceals pretty well in the holster shown above, as long as I can wear a cover garment. An open untucked shirt does well to conceal the 44 in warmer seasons and does not look out of the ordinary in casual environments.

digiroc
Digiroc, how do you like that fabric holster? What brand is it?
 
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