Is the .380 cartridge underpowered?

[Erich]

I think there is a problem trying to make the .380 into something it's not.

I'll thumbnail this, because many here have heard it before. I've worked in some capacity on more than 200 handgun killing cases. After a while a pattern started to emerge, and it's stayed true. The only thing that will guarantee the cessation of offensive action by a human is a hit to either 1) the brain/spinal cord or 2) the heart/aorta. An effective defensive handgun is one that allows the user to accurately target these vitals and provides sufficient penetration to hit them. That's all. Other hits might stop a person, but these will. Period.

You might want expansion to increase the diameter of the tissue damage. Fine, so long as it doesn't trade off the penetration you need to reach these vitals. You might want expansion to prevent overpenetration. Fine and noble - Rule 4 should always remain prominently in our heads.

Turning to the call of the question for this thread: Is the .380 cartridge underpowered?

I have worked now on dozens of killing cases in which .380s were used. I have never seen a case in which .380 hardball failed to penetrate to the depth needed to hit the heart/aorta or brain/spinal cord. .380 ball appears to be effective. (And, while I've worked on one case in which a .380 ball round overpenetrated its intended target and wounded a person beyond, it only hit the first guy's calf so I have a hard time saying that it's a dangerously overpenetrative round.)

However, I have worked on three shootings in which .380 hollow points failed to penetrate sufficiently hit these vitals. (And these were fired from guns with longer barrels than the LCP types have.) Boy, but so many have been convinced that hollow points are the way to go (just look up-thread, for instance), and that's all the gun magazines show as defensive ammo from these guns. Not for me!

Think about what a hollow point does. By opening up and transmitting energy to the target medium, it loses the energy of its forward motion. The opening of a hollow point is like putting on the brakes, like opening a parachute.

It's exactly what you want/need when you're using something penetrative like a 9x19 in an urban setting, but is it a good idea for the slower/lighter .380? In my opinion, based on those three failures I've seen, no. A 115-gr 9x19 bullet traveling at 1150 fps is one thing; a 90-grain .380 bullet at 925 fps is another thing entirely. It can't afford to have the energy bled off - it may well not penetrate enough. Look at the gel tests out there. Do you have a .380 hollow point that meets FBI protocols for penetration from your gun? I doubt it. I would say that a .380 hollow point is not an effective defensive round.

But everyone should use whatever you determine is right for his own needs after doing his research.

 

[Erich]

Welcome to the forum, Rangeline9!

... "with a delivery of a brick through a plate glass window". What movie was that from ? Dr. No, when he gets his Beretta taken away.

And Q was referencing a 7.65 (.32) PPK with that remark. Fleming may have sold a lot of pulp, but his gun knowledge is not something to cite as authority.

 

[BB57]

A few thoughts...

1) all handgun calibers are under powered when it comes to stopping an assailant.

2) Bullet placement is paramount as "stops" come in two flavors:
- the half that are "OMG I've been shot! I'm going to stop doing what ever got me shot!" type of psychological stops; and
- the other half where you need to hit the assailant in the central nervous system or in the cardio pulmonary system to get rapid incapacitation. One shuts off the nerve impulses and the other drops the blood pressure quickly (still 10-15 seconds).

If you don't get a psychological stop, you need good bullet placement.

You are also going to shoot and then keep shooting until the assailant is down, regardless of the caliber you are using.

3) People will argue for ever regarding the caliber requirements.

The FBI wants expansion of at least 1.5x original diameter and 12-18" of penetration (and that last 4" is arguably more than is needed). The benefit of this kind of ballistic gelatin data based approach is consistency in rating and comparing various calibers and loads.

The downside is that the gelatin data and the performance minimums were derived based on an imperfect theoretical model, and that model doesn't always explain actual results on the street. Ideally you should be using the real world results to inform and revise the results of the model.

For example, if you are carrying a .380 ACP, you need one of a half dozen loads, all using the 90 gr Hornady XTP at around 1000 fps to meet the FBI minimum. However, there are other loads that have performed well on the street.

4) barrel length matters a lot in the .380 ACP and the .38 Special.

A good .380 ACP load in a 3.5" -3.9" semi-auto is more effective than a standard pressure .38 Special out of a 2" snub nose revolver, and the best .380 ACP loads are as good as many .38+p loads in a snub nose revolver. And most .380 ACPs offer 7-8 rounds compared to 5 or 6 for a J or K frame revolver.

5) what ever you carry you need to be able to shoot it well under extreme stress and the vast majority of people who carry a handgun for self protection (including police officers) are not as skilled as they should be.

In an actual self defense situation you will devolve to your lowest level of fully mastered training. For many that operationalizes as pointing the gun in the general direction of the bad guy and pulling the trigger.

6) Carry the largest, most effective caliber that you can shoot accurately under practical combat conditions.

For most folks a 9mm Luger is a good middle of the road choice and it balances speed, power and magazine capacity pretty well. If you are a revolver, guy a .38 +P is probably the choice, unless you're carrying a K or L frame and are well practiced and skilled with .357 Mag.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

... "with a delivery of a brick through a plate glass window". What movie was that from ? Dr. No, when he gets his Beretta taken away.

Yes, Dr. No, and he was given a .32 caliber pistol.

I learned, over the years, PPK, PPKS, and clones are unforgiving when held improperly as they bite ... HARD ! Also, will not tolerate limp-wristing.

I have often heard this. I have never fired a PPK or its variants (not counting a the new .22) but in the past folks complained to me about the recoil of their PPKs and I didn't know what to make of it. I don't recall having significant recoil in my .380s.

 

[Rustyt1953]

This is just an opinion from the cheap seats.

Four years ago, I removed the words "stopping power" and "ballistics" from my lexicon. My ever-present LCP has 7 rounds of ball ammo at the ready.

If I get into that unexpected, adrenaline dump, tunnel vision, them-or-me, smell their breath range confrontation, I want to punch as many holes into them as fast as circumstance and ability allow.

I, in essence, have handed the protection of my life over to the .380 and am at peace with that.

PS: Erich, you rock.

 

[petepeterson]

I think there is a problem trying to make the .380 into something it's not.

But everyone should use whatever you determine is right for his own needs after doing his research.

Erich, you eloquently summed up why I carry flat points in my Kel-Tec. That little tube doesn't look like enough runway to me. I want the slug to reach where it needs to, not open up and ruin everything in front of it!

 

[BAM-BAM]

I have never fired a PPK or its variants ..... but in the past folks complained to me about the recoil of their PPKs and I didn't know what to make of it. I don't recall having significant recoil in my .380s.

There is a difference in "felt recoil" from a blow-back pistol vs. a lock breach. Perception is a .380 has "more" recoil than a 9mm.


If you ever get the chance shoot a blow back .380 and a Colt Mustang "lock breach" .380 side by side.......

 

[dben002]

The answer to your question is another question....

Would you want to receive 2 .380's in the chest area or head area?

Methinks that answers the question.

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

I think there is a problem trying to make the .380 into something it's not.

I'll thumbnail this, because many here have heard it before. I've worked in some capacity on more than 200 handgun killing cases. After a while a pattern started to emerge, and it's stayed true. The only thing that will guarantee the cessation of offensive action by a human is a hit to either 1) the brain/spinal cord or 2) the heart/aorta. An effective defensive handgun is one that allows the user to accurately target these vitals and provides sufficient penetration to hit them. That's all. Other hits might stop a person, but these will. Period.

You might want expansion to increase the diameter of the tissue damage. Fine, so long as it doesn't trade off the penetration you need to reach these vitals. You might want expansion to prevent overpenetration. Fine and noble - Rule 4 should always remain prominently in our heads.

Turning to the call of the question for this thread: Is the .380 cartridge underpowered?

I have worked now on dozens of killing cases in which .380s were used. I have never seen a case in which .380 hardball failed to penetrate to the depth needed to hit the heart/aorta or brain/spinal cord. .380 ball appears to be effective. (And, while I've worked on one case in which a .380 ball round overpenetrated its intended target and wounded a person beyond, it only hit the first guy's calf so I have a hard time saying that it's a dangerously overpenetrative round.)

However, I have worked on three shootings in which .380 hollow points failed to penetrate sufficiently hit these vitals. (And these were fired from guns with longer barrels than the LCP types have.) Boy, but so many have been convinced that hollow points are the way to go (just look up-thread, for instance), and that's all the gun magazines show as defensive ammo from these guns. Not for me!

Think about what a hollow point does. By opening up and transmitting energy to the target medium, it loses the energy of its forward motion. The opening of a hollow point is like putting on the brakes, like opening a parachute.

It's exactly what you want/need when you're using something penetrative like a 9x19 in an urban setting, but is it a good idea for the slower/lighter .380? In my opinion, based on those three failures I've seen, no. A 115-gr 9x19 bullet traveling at 1150 fps is one thing; a 90-grain .380 bullet at 925 fps is another thing entirely. It can't afford to have the energy bled off - it may well not penetrate enough. Look at the gel tests out there. Do you have a .380 hollow point that meets FBI protocols for penetration from your gun? I doubt it. I would say that a .380 hollow point is not an effective defensive round.

But everyone should use whatever you determine is right for his own needs after doing his research.

THIS IS THE MAN I WAS QUOTEING........

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

Penetration and placement..repeat 1,000 times.

 

[Topsarge]

As a retired LEO/SWAT I've seen people shot with small calibers, some lived, some didn't. As said many times before, shot placement is the most important factor. That being said, I'd rather make that shot with a larger caliber handgun. My EDC rotation consists of .357, .45acp, .44 sp. and .45 Colt. Someone mentioned earlier that you can get a 9mm pretty close in size to a 380. He is right. I just bought a Kahr CM40 that is only 1/2" longer than my Bodyguard 380 and is actually shorter. Six rounds of .40 over 380 sounds better to me. Only weighs 15.8 is too. If you don't like the recoil of the .40, the CM9 is the same size. I bought it for a pocket carry in warmer weather but I'm thinking it will see more carrying time than that.

 

[SMSgt]

Load your 380 with thermonuclear bullets and shot placement won't matter.

 

[MCorps0311]

I have two a G42 & M&P BG 380's,loaded with Hornady Critical Defense 380 Auto 90 gr FTX.I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to be hit by one of them bullet's.Just my opinion!!!

 

[tops]

Load your 380 with thermonuclear bullets and shot placement won't matter.

Have you tried the +P heavy duty critical defense tackteacool super duper hollow point that was developed using an amazing new break through and new scientific technology? Larry

 

[T2C]

If a subject is cranked up on drugs, you will be sorely disappointed with the performance of a majority of the handgun calibers. Bigger may be better, but shot placement and tactics win the day.

I carry a Glock 42 on occasion with the mindset that I am trading power for convenience and light weight. I carry Speer 90g GDHP.

I do not train to double tap a violent attacker with a .380 ACP, I train to fire three rounds C.O.M. then fire at alternate areas of the attacker until I am no longer threatened with great bodily harm or death.

People who love .380 autos will give you one answer and those who are not comfortable with the .380 will give an opposing opinion. The real issue is sorting through the people who have no knowledge or experience with using a handgun for self defense and parrot what they read on the internet or heard at the local gun shop.

 

[shawn mccarver]

This may be a personal choice thing to many people but I'd like to look at this purely from stopping power. Aside from accuracy placement, is the .380 a good carry round? Balistic wise I am looking at 900-1,000 fps but only around 250-275 fpe. The way I see it is if you can't stop a 6'3" 300 lb. bad guy hiped up on drugs without trying to put 6-7 rounds in him isn't a round then ineffective in those first critical seconds?

Without reading all of the replies before writing this, I suspect that 90% of the responses will fall into one or more of the following categories:

1. Yes, underpowered. Friends don't let friends carry mouseguns.
2. No, with modern ammo you will be fine because shot placement trumps everything.
3. For all those who said it was underpowered, at least one person will say some variation of, "I bet you would not want to get shot with a .380."
4. Someone will trot out the tired old phrase that "more people have been killed with the .380 than with all the bigger calibers combined." I used to hear this about the .25, back when .25s were still in the game.
5. A .380 carried with you is better than a .45 in the trunk. This person may quote Skeeter Skelton, who liked his PPK, but only if old enough to remember Skelton.
6. With "super bat hi-vel zombie killer bullet made of exploding unobtainium," the .380 is now the best stopper in the world.
7. The .380 may kill lots of people, but killing is irrelevant. The .380 will not stop anyone fast enough.
8. Your ordinary thug will run away at the sight of any gun, so .380s are fine.
9. The following interchange was heard the last time two people argued about the .380: "James Bond used a Walther PPK - that was a .380, wasn't it?" "No, Ethel, Bond used a PP in .32, at least in Dr. No." "Well, then, if a .32 is good enough for 007, then a .380 is a real manstopper." "You do realize that Bond is a fictional character created by Ian Fleming, who first armed his character with a .25 caliber Beretta, don't you?" "See, I told you. If a .25 is good enough for 007, then certainly a .380 will get the job done." "I give up."
And, the 10th thing you are likely to see in this thread: Carry the .380 because anything bigger will not fit in your pocket.

 

[silversnake]

.380 will probably get the job done. I just don't see the point unless you're extremely sensitive to recoil or can't conceal anything bigger than an LCP.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I wonder what the odds are of having to defend yourself against a 6' 3" 300 pound man on drugs?

Pretty low I would think.

 

[hkcavalier]

This old chestnut again.

At white of the eyes range, it'll do fine if you hit someone where it counts.

 

[STCM(SW)]

This old chestnut again.

At white of the eyes range, it'll do fine if you hit someone where it counts.

You got that right!!!