Is the .380 cartridge underpowered?

[Biggfoot44]

I wouldn't volunteer to take two .22Shorts either, but doesn't make them a good choice for SD either.

9Mm subcompacts are available the sme size as most .380, and are far better choice. If I just had to have a semi of less than 9mm, I'd rather have a .32acp instead. Nearly same power, better penetration-expansion tradeoffs, much o ss recoil, leading to better practical shot placement.

And Skeeter carried a Walther PP in his boot top, not a PPK.

 

[Grayfox]

I've been reading debates like this on various forums for years.
I haven't seen it lately, but for a long time many of the self proclaimed "experts" swore that anything less than a 9mm was completely worthless and only a fool would carry one. Yet, these same "experts" also recommended 2" J-frames.
OTOH you had those saying carry the smallest gun because you will actually have it with you rather than a big one left at home.
The debate goes on and on.

I'm no ballistics expert nor have I been a cop, medical examiner or whatever. I do know that .22s have killed people and other folks have survived multiple hits with .44 Magnums. The fact is, you just never know how a person will react to being shot.

At various times I've carried just about everything from a .45 Colt to .25 auto. I've never felt undergunned with any of them. You just need to know the strengths and weaknesses of what you have and make the best use of it.
Got a 9mm or .45? You're all set for an extended firefight out to 25 yards or more. But how often does that really happen?
What's that old saw? 3 shots at 3 feet in 3 seconds or whatever? Most self defense shootings happen real fast and real close. Or at least that's what the so-called "experts" claim.
All you have is a .22? Fine. Odds are you're gonna be a bad breath distance anyway. Stick the gun in his damned face and fire.... several times! That should take care of the problem.

JMHO, but I don't think its what you carry so much as what you can do with it.

Just for the record, I happen to be a fan of the Walther PP series pistols and have carried them. In fact, I carry a Colt Mustang XSP on my daily exercise walk. Yep, just a little bitty .380 and I'm perfectly fine with that.

FMJ vs HPs? Why does it have to be one or the other? My magazines are loaded to fire 2 federal Hydra-Shoks followed by four Winchester FMJ flat points. If I have to use it, I'm gonna empty the magazine. I'm sure one or the other will get the job done.
BTW: I carry a spare mag too.

Anyway, y'all can get back to arguing statistics and who saw what. These are just the opinions of one old guy.
But then, I'm no "expert" either.

 

[BB57]

There is a difference in "felt recoil" from a blow-back pistol vs. a lock breach. Perception is a .380 has "more" recoil than a 9mm.


If you ever get the chance shoot a blow back .380 and a Colt Mustang "lock breach" .380 side by side.......

A good example of this is the RIA "Baby Rock", a blow back operated .380 ACP, and a Kimber Micro, Sig P238 or Colt Mustang - all of which are delayed recoil locked breech 1911'esque .380 ACP pistols.

The Baby Rock weighs 23.5 oz empty compared to 13.4 oz for the Kimber Micro. You'll expect the Baby Rock to have less perceived roil, but you'll find the Baby Rock's blow back operation and high initial slide velocity results in much sharper perceived recoil. In comparison the Kimber Micro's delayed recoil locked breech spread the recoil out over a longer period of time, with reduced slide velocity and a much softer feel, even though the pistol is 10 oz lighter.


If you compare the babu rock to the PPK/S you now that two blow back operated pistols that are within an ounce of each other in weight and the felt recoil is for all practical purposes identical.

 

[BB57]

Some one brought up the micro sized 9mm Luger pistols.

For example you can get a Kimber Micro Carry in .380 ACP at 13.4 oz or you can get the Kimber Micro 9 in 9mm Luger at 15.6 oz.

Given the apples to apples operating systems, and the significantly more powerful 9mm Luger round, the Micro 9 is going to generate more recoil, both actual and perceived, than the .380 ACP.

Unless someone is willing and able to shoot the Micro 9 as well as the Micro Carry, the Micro 9 is a bad choice for them - they will be better served getting more round on target in less time with the smaller .380 ACP.

-----

I don't regard the .380 ACP as my first choice as a primary self defense handgun, although I do carry it as my only pistol in some specific situations. I have however carried the PPK/S and more recently the Kimber Micro Carry as a back up on a regular basis. Both are small enough to carry in a pocket holster. The Kimber Micro Carry has the advantage of being about 10 oz lighter, and it's a little shorter, but the PPK/S, despite the sharper recoil, has an edge in accuracy.

I considered the Mico 9, but it doesn't shoot as well as either of the above pistols and with a additional .4" in length, it's just a bit too long for pocket carry as a backup.

And it also fails in one role of a back up pistol in our household - handing it off to my wife. My wife does not conceal carry. While she shoots, she does not shoot nearly as much as I do and is not as proficient with heavier recoiling pistols. She can however shoot a Kimber Micro Carry just fine. Consequently, if we end up walking into a situation where we need to withdraw, I can hand the Kimber Micro to her in its pocket holster and she can then lead the retreat while I cover our retreat with my primary pistol.

In other words, how you plan to use a small pistol should also come into consideration when choosing the pistol.

 

[Arik]

I wouldn't go worrying about the 6'3 300lbs guy on drugs. Because if you do you'd need to be carrying some serious firepower. Start with something small like a 8 inch barrel 500S&W! Handgun rounds are generally ineffective, especially against people like you describe. Plenty of people survived bigger and badder rounds. Sometimes multiple rounds.

380s lack penetration with HP and lacks wound cavity with FMJ. For me personally they also lack grip and sights. Even ignoring the sights there is not enough grip to shoot fast and accurate. Getting a bigger 380 like a Beretta 84 is pointless because at this point I'm carrying something the size of a compact duty gun so I may as well take advantage of that and use a 9mm.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Arik]

Some one brought up the micro sized 9mm Luger pistols.

For example you can get a Kimber Micro Carry in .380 ACP at 13.4 oz or you can get the Kimber Micro 9 in 9mm Luger at 15.6 oz.

Given the apples to apples operating systems, and the significantly more powerful 9mm Luger round, the Micro 9 is going to generate more recoil, both actual and perceived, than the .380 ACP.

Unless someone is willing and able to shoot the Micro 9 as well as the Micro Carry, the Micro 9 is a bad choice for them - they will be better served getting more round on target in less time with the smaller .380 ACP.

-----

I don't regard the .380 ACP as my first choice as a primary self defense handgun, although I do carry it as my only pistol in some specific situations. I have however carried the PPK/S and more recently the Kimber Micro Carry as a back up on a regular basis. Both are small enough to carry in a pocket holster. The Kimber Micro Carry has the advantage of being about 10 oz lighter, and it's a little shorter, but the PPK/S, despite the sharper recoil, has an edge in accuracy.

I considered the Mico 9, but it doesn't shoot as well as either of the above pistols and with a additional .4" in length, it's just a bit too long for pocket carry as a backup.

And it also fails in one role of a back up pistol in our household - handing it off to my wife. My wife does not conceal carry. While she shoots, she does not shoot nearly as much as I do and is not as proficient with heavier recoiling pistols. She can however shoot a Kimber Micro Carry just fine. Consequently, if we end up walking into a situation where we need to withdraw, I can hand the Kimber Micro to her in its pocket holster and she can then lead the retreat while I cover our retreat with my primary pistol.

In other words, how you plan to use a small pistol should also come into consideration when choosing the pistol.

I always found the blowback 380s to have much more felt recoil then the micro 9. Shooting my friend's Beretta 84 was extremely unpleasant despite it being rather big for today's standards and all steel. On the other hand I can comfortably shoot a Kahr PM 9 all day

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Focusing back on the original poster's question... and I admit I haven't read all of the other 40+ responses so far.

The .380 auto can do the job, with the right load, in the right gun, and proper shot placement. ANY gun can be intimidating, and any gun is better than no gun in a bad situation. Also, unless you're willing to strap on some big magnum, or carry a shotgun, the issue of stopping dead-in-his-tracks a 6' 3" giant drugged out bad guy with armor-plated clothing just isn't going to happen.

Every choice on gun, load, holster, etc. is a best compromise. I live in South Florida, and heavy clothing just isn't in the mix. That goes for both legal carry people as well as the bad guys.

I've got a couple of carry gun options. Most DAYS, a 442 (.38 Special), or a Sig P238 (.380 auto). It's difficult to conceal anything too big wearing shorts and a lightweight shirt. When I'm out at NIGHT, dressed up a little bit, a SW99 in .40 comes along.

The new compact 9mm guns are a good option too. I just haven't strayed from what I've found to be comfortable and practical.

Best wishes, and remember... get a good holster (or holsters) for your choice of carry... whatever you choose.

Best wishes,

Roger aka Mr. Wonderful

 

[digiroc]

Bigger is better but shot placement is King ...

My constant carry gun is a 360PD AirLite with +p .38 loads. At under a pound loaded and holstered it make for effortless carry. Revolver reliability is also a plus with no feeding/ejecting problems.

I also usually carry one of my 3rd gen 9mm as backup for a NY reload if 5 shots is not enough. My 3914DAO is as small and light as many .380's .

I prefer at least .40 S&W if shooting starts and am picking up a 457 in .45 for potential carry.

The .380 "mouse guns" can be effective if the shot placement is well made, but I shoot all of the above with good tactical accuracy so I don't bother with anything under 9mm.

digiroc

 

[sw282]

Prime real estate and Bullets have MUCH in common


L O C A T I O N--L O C A T I O N--L O C A T I O N

 

[Ziggy2525]

I'm not a LEO or a Coroner. I do analytics. Seems to me, in all of these caliber debates, people are trying to use the probability of one event to predict the probability of another event without knowing if they are correlated.

As a civilian CHP holder, I carry to stop a threat that could kill or severely injure me or my loved ones (and possibly a stranger depending on circumstances). The statistic that matters to me is how often a particular caliber and type round failed to protect a defender from death or severe injury when it was fired in self defense and struck the BG.

One extreme could be that every BG that was shot with a .380 died, but before they died the BG was still able to kill or severely injure every GG that was using the .380 (or any other caliber).

OTOH, the other extreme would be that no BG was ever killed with a .380 fired in self defense, but no GG that used a .380 for self defense was ever injured or killed either. That would be pretty effective.

It's what happens to the GG that fired their weapon in self defense that matters (again - pick a caliber) .

The outcome for the BG might be relevant if there was some data that showed that the outcomes for the CHP GG and the BG are correlated. I've looked. I haven't seen anything that relates the two things.

 

[gen3guy]

The caliber wars go on and on. I have 2 .380s, a Walther PPK/S and a Beretta model 84. The main reason I own these pistols is that they score high on 'cool factor'. I do keep the Beretta in my night stand (accompanied b a CA Bulldog) and I feel OK with it. My away from home carry piece is usually a Glock 23 or a Smith Model 36.

You can inflict a lethal wound on someone with a .22. Who wants that? If I have to use a firearm for defense, it's first purpose will be to intimidate. This is after I have exhausted all opportunities to avoid the situation to begin with. If I can stop the threat by retreating I will do so.

I'm sure that there's somebody out there with a loaded .500 S&W Magnum in their car. They'll need to hit with the first shot, hope there's no bystanders within 1/2 a mile, and know a good audiologist. Carry what you shoot well.

 

[mrchuck]

I see a lot of very small .380's at concealed carry classes that are exclusively carried by women.
They LOVE the size before firing them!
After firing the minimum 50 rounds, ALL of these women have sliced their hand because the slide recoiling back cuts them between the thumb and finger.
Yes, every one of them gets cut.
They like the "pink color" of the pistol.
Most all of these permit holders probably will never practice with this "new item" in heir purses, but I guarantee you that everyone will remember the cut on their shooting hand.

 

[686-380]

Paradigm Adjustment

I think there is a problem trying to make the .380 into something it's not.

I'll thumbnail this, because many here have heard it before. I've worked in some capacity on more than 200 handgun killing cases. After a while a pattern started to emerge, and it's stayed true. The only thing that will guarantee the cessation of offensive action by a human is a hit to either 1) the brain/spinal cord or 2) the heart/aorta. An effective defensive handgun is one that allows the user to accurately target these vitals and provides sufficient penetration to hit them. That's all. Other hits might stop a person, but these will. Period.

You might want expansion to increase the diameter of the tissue damage. Fine, so long as it doesn't trade off the penetration you need to reach these vitals. You might want expansion to prevent overpenetration. Fine and noble - Rule 4 should always remain prominently in our heads.

Turning to the call of the question for this thread: Is the .380 cartridge underpowered?

I have worked now on dozens of killing cases in which .380s were used. I have never seen a case in which .380 hardball failed to penetrate to the depth needed to hit the heart/aorta or brain/spinal cord. .380 ball appears to be effective. (And, while I've worked on one case in which a .380 ball round overpenetrated its intended target and wounded a person beyond, it only hit the first guy's calf so I have a hard time saying that it's a dangerously overpenetrative round.)

However, I have worked on three shootings in which .380 hollow points failed to penetrate sufficiently hit these vitals. (And these were fired from guns with longer barrels than the LCP types have.) Boy, but so many have been convinced that hollow points are the way to go (just look up-thread, for instance), and that's all the gun magazines show as defensive ammo from these guns. Not for me!

Think about what a hollow point does. By opening up and transmitting energy to the target medium, it loses the energy of its forward motion. The opening of a hollow point is like putting on the brakes, like opening a parachute.

It's exactly what you want/need when you're using something penetrative like a 9x19 in an urban setting, but is it a good idea for the slower/lighter .380? In my opinion, based on those three failures I've seen, no. A 115-gr 9x19 bullet traveling at 1150 fps is one thing; a 90-grain .380 bullet at 925 fps is another thing entirely. It can't afford to have the energy bled off - it may well not penetrate enough. Look at the gel tests out there. Do you have a .380 hollow point that meets FBI protocols for penetration from your gun? I doubt it. I would say that a .380 hollow point is not an effective defensive round.

But everyone should use whatever you determine is right for his own needs after doing his research.

I submit that there are several other factors to consider. First, what is your personal threat level? Inner city Chicago or suburban low-crime, picket fence America?

Second, what is your comfort limit with regards to weight and bulk? I absolutely love my BG380 because I retain full mobility and comfort.


Third, are you convinced your defensive use must be lethal? I'm reading "autopsy" a lot in this and similar threads. I firmly believe in stopping the threat. That's not to say I will shoot to wound (not realistic) but if my bullets only penetrate to 9 inches, it may suffice to end hostilities. I'm hoping 13 shots will be enough to save my bacon. My personal tests with Hornady and some other hollow points have only reached this deep in ballistic gelatin.

 

[Erich]

This is just an opinion from the cheap seats.

Four years ago, I removed the words "stopping power" and "ballistics" from my lexicon. My ever-present LCP has 7 rounds of ball ammo at the ready.

If I get into that unexpected, adrenaline dump, tunnel vision, them-or-me, smell their breath range confrontation, I want to punch as many holes into them as fast as circumstance and ability allow.

I, in essence, have handed the protection of my life over to the .380 and am at peace with that.

PS: Erich, you rock.

Aw, shucks!

 

[mickeyblueyes]

Wow wow wow, expansive topic, I loved the LCP,easy to hide, I love the 642 with Ranger +P+ ,I love the .40 Shield PC , I love theSW 60 pc with hot 357s
I would love to have a 9mm j Frame with Ranger +P+ in it, I'd love a snubby 44 mag. The beauty of it is we can buy all these and carry under various circumstances under no circumstance would I want to be shot in the face with a LCP which is wear I would shoot a attacker.

 

[patrickd]

Anyone who says the .380 isn't a viable stopper with modern defense ammo should prove it by shooting themselves and staying in the fight.
There's a famous old saying about opinions. Opinions are like ------- The bigger the opinion the bigger the -------

 

[Protected One]

A few thoughts...

2) Bullet placement is paramount as "stops" come in two flavors:
- the half that are "OMG I've been shot! I'm going to stop doing what ever got me shot!" type of psychological stops; and
- the other half where you need to hit the assailant in the central nervous system or in the cardio pulmonary system to get rapid incapacitation. One shuts off the nerve impulses and the other drops the blood pressure quickly (still 10-15 seconds).

For the sake of being thorough, there are THREE "flavors" of stops...the two you mention, and, the stop created by the mere presence of a gun becoming known. This is, as I understand it, the most common.

I think there is a problem trying to make the .380 into something it's not.

I'll thumbnail this, because many here have heard it before. I've worked in some capacity on more than 200 handgun killing cases. After a while a pattern started to emerge, and it's stayed true. The only thing that will guarantee the cessation of offensive action by a human is a hit to either 1) the brain/spinal cord or 2) the heart/aorta. An effective defensive handgun is one that allows the user to accurately target these vitals and provides sufficient penetration to hit them. That's all. Other hits might stop a person, but these will. Period.

You might want expansion to increase the diameter of the tissue damage. Fine, so long as it doesn't trade off the penetration you need to reach these vitals. You might want expansion to prevent overpenetration. Fine and noble - Rule 4 should always remain prominently in our heads.

Turning to the call of the question for this thread: Is the .380 cartridge underpowered?

I have worked now on dozens of killing cases in which .380s were used. I have never seen a case in which .380 hardball failed to penetrate to the depth needed to hit the heart/aorta or brain/spinal cord. .380 ball appears to be effective. (And, while I've worked on one case in which a .380 ball round overpenetrated its intended target and wounded a person beyond, it only hit the first guy's calf so I have a hard time saying that it's a dangerously overpenetrative round.)

However, I have worked on three shootings in which .380 hollow points failed to penetrate sufficiently hit these vitals. (And these were fired from guns with longer barrels than the LCP types have.) Boy, but so many have been convinced that hollow points are the way to go (just look up-thread, for instance), and that's all the gun magazines show as defensive ammo from these guns. Not for me!

Think about what a hollow point does. By opening up and transmitting energy to the target medium, it loses the energy of its forward motion. The opening of a hollow point is like putting on the brakes, like opening a parachute.

It's exactly what you want/need when you're using something penetrative like a 9x19 in an urban setting, but is it a good idea for the slower/lighter .380? In my opinion, based on those three failures I've seen, no. A 115-gr 9x19 bullet traveling at 1150 fps is one thing; a 90-grain .380 bullet at 925 fps is another thing entirely. It can't afford to have the energy bled off - it may well not penetrate enough. Look at the gel tests out there. Do you have a .380 hollow point that meets FBI protocols for penetration from your gun? I doubt it. I would say that a .380 hollow point is not an effective defensive round.

But everyone should use whatever you determine is right for his own needs after doing his research.

While I see the logic in your points I have to ask the question: In the three cases where you say the JHP "failed", was the person presenting the threat not dead? Were they not "stopped?" Did the victim suffer injury as a result of the rounds failure?

 

[ContinentalOp]

I think something that tends to get lost whenever "stopping power" topics comes up is the distinction between stopping the attacker and killing the attacker, as a few other posters have mentioned.

The purpose of a self defense gun is to stop a violent attack. The attacker may die as a result, but that is not the goal.

Adequate penetration is one factor. Yes, a round that penetrates deep enough (12-18" if you follow the FBI protocols) will be more likely to stop an attacker than a round that doesn't, but not all wounds are the same. A round that penetrates with a deep, but narrow, wound track, like FMJ, may end up killing the attacker, but because of the elastic nature of flesh it may not necessarily stop the attacker quickly enough. On the other hand, a round that doesn't penetrate deeply but expands or has a cookie-cutter effect, like a JHP, may actually cause more trauma and stop an attacker, even if it's not necessarily a lethal wound.

Of course, a round that both penetrates adequately and expands/cuts along the way will be even more effective at stopping an attacker, which is why typical service calibers, like .38 Special/.357 Magnum, 9mm, .40S&W, .357Sig, and .45ACP, are recommended over the .380ACP.

But even then there's no guarantee. All self defense handgun choices are a compromise in one way or another. While most people can probably carry a service-caliber handgun most of the time, that may not always be feasible. People have to make a choice as to what compromises they're willing to make. A compact, more easily concealed gun in a lesser caliber may be a better choice than a larger gun in a service caliber depending on the situation.

Just my opinion.

 

[CATI1835]

I truly wish people would stop using the term "stopping power". There is no such thing. Even the FBI says the term means nothing. They also state that a "one shot stop" is fantasy unless the individual is hit in the cranial or spinal cortex region. Even a heart shot, regardless of the caliber, will not guarantee a single shot stop. Shot placement and penetration are the primary considerations. A round to the brain with a .22LR will kill you as easily as a .44Mag to the same spot.

You carry what you can shoot comfortably. You practice with it. And you buy the best ammo for its intended purpose. Even if it is the lowly .22.

Start on page 7. This is enlightening for those that don't already have a closed mind on the subject:
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

 

[Ziggy2525]

...

Start on page 7. This is enlightening for those that don't already have a closed mind on the subject:
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

This is a great whitepaper/report. Thanks for posting.