revolver muzzle down reloads

[2lmaker]

I am new in IDPA, actually only ever competed once so far. I know that a revolver reload is almost always done muzzle up and I know that the IDPA rules allow it. Even at the range our group uses where "no muzzle above the berm" is the constant warning to all competitors at all points of the process I am allowed a muzzle high reload in revolver class, at least a muzzle high ejection as per the most popular and used method.

I plan to start out a new habit in this new to me sport and am practicing a muzzle down ejection style.

When I have fired the whole cylinder I start the reload by turning the gun (686 SSR) horizontal with the release side down. Right thumb does the release forward motion, trigger finger does the cylinder swing out and rolls the gun down below horizontal. Left hand is flattened and I slap the ejector back and up while I push the gun forward and down with the right hand wrapped around the hammer end of the frame window, first and second finger on the big flat at the back of the window and thumb under the hammer (DON'T DROP IT DON'T DROP IT). Eyes now on weapon,bring it back to sights up but muzzle down orientation in my right hand (and repeat the slap if necessary), grab the frame by the cylinder and outside of the trigger guard left hand, speedloader right hand and I LOOK the rounds down into the cylinder and then eyes back on target as the cylinder swings shut and the right hand gets loose of the speedloader and back into the game.

My biggest problem is ejecting a full cylinder of full house .357 mag and I may go to .38 specials if it stays a problem. Good clean brass and a brushed out cylinder helps. I really insist on competing and practicing with a load and frame I will be carrying daily, I even considered competing with a 19 snubby but the SSR was so pretty.....

My reason for establishing this muzzle down reload as a habit is the thought that I intend to join this club and shoot alot, and probably compete with some semi autos eventually. The muzzle down reload is strictly enforced on the clip feeders at our range. Better to start learning the muscle memory with tools I can use later, right?

What the heck, anyone tried it? Anyone got any pointers? Video referrals?

I have recorded 1 sub 5 second reload time this way but most are in the 6 to 7 category with extra seconds coming on when I don't get a full 6 ejection with one slap or if I juggle the speedloader. I know I am getting faster, but I am pretty sure if I practiced the normal muzzle high ejection this much I would be shaving seconds pretty easy. It isn't really about speed for me yet, I am trying to master trigger control and aiming for consistency on the targets and in my reloads at this early stage.

thanks all

 

[Fishinfool]

I have always been taught, and have taught, muzzle up when unloading a revolver for a speed or self defense situation. Makes for more positive ejection.

Also, you should really be using your left thumb to empty the gun while cradling it through the cylinder opening, and using your right hand to already be reaching for your speedloader. It's quicker. Never been on a range where you couldn't point a revolver muzzle up while ejecting brass. The cylinder should already be open (and the gun safe) before the guns muzzle points up to eject.

Larry

 

[zonker5]

Another reason for muzzle up un-loading is so that unburned powder particles don't get behind the ejector. That can cause the cylinder to jam in the frame and ruin your whole day if it's a defense situation.

 

[Steve912]

Go with the muzzle-up ejection.

With practice you'll be done reloading faster than some auto
guys change out magazines...

 

[SAFireman]

Muzzle up - prevents un-burned powder from getting behind the extractor and is less likely to get a casing under the star.

You may have to explain these things to the people who are trying to drag you into muzzle down practice. Muzzle up came from years of LE training and practice and it is safe.

 

[2lmaker]

thanks everyone. Lots of long accepted facts that I (and probably most here) am well aware of.

After YEARS of muzzle up ejection I can already perform them pretty well. Like I said, these are my first competitions and I have never timed either style before, but I am sure a muzzle up ejection is faster and better practice for lots of reasons, many stated here already.

I am trying to get in with good standing among the SO's and directors of the IDPA club I am joining. I am already a pain in their A's because I am the only regular revolver shooter. I know the muzzle high reloads bring a bit of a furrow to their brows even though they are behind me and I can't see it. Our range is being surrounded by new houses and new roads and "below the berm" is THE rule of the day, although the PIA revolver guys are allowed to go high.

I am not sure but I think I am already reloading as fast as some of the pistol guys, even using my muzzle down style last month I ranked about low middle of the pack of sixty shooters.

Please don't try to stop me, I will stop myself if this isn't going to work, beleive me.

Anyone tried this or have a referance to another person that has or does?

 

[Protocall_Design]

A good revo reload with moon clips is around 2 seconds. With speed loaders around 3 - 4 seconds. This is with muzzle up. A 6 or more second time is considered pretty slow in competition.

 

[2lmaker]

Is it just me or does anyone else agree that a moon clip with ACP brass would probably still be faster underwater in the dark?

As consumers, can we all tell S&W that a revolver needs to have an ejector that pushes farther than any case that can fit the cylinder? Trying for fast reloads with a snubby and .357 length case is an exercise I hope I dont ever have to use under the stress of fear for my life.

top break shotguns have the ejection process well in hand. Webly?

 

[growr]

So that I am clear on this...you are talking about muzzle up when clearing empties aren't you? If so, this is most common practice I know of.
So few of us shoot revolvers in IDPA/USPSA that they percieve anything slightly different from what is used on a bottom feeder that it short circuits their brain.

Yes, I shoot revolvers in both of those games and have had to deal with this more than once.
I used to be an RO in both and there is NOTHING unsafe in doing this.
Randy

 

[Protocall_Design]

Revolvers are gravity operated. Muzzle up to empty, muzzle down to load. A semi-auto has a recoil spring to ram a shell in the chamber, one at a time. We are loading several at a time without a strong spring to push them in.

I once had a USPSA RO screaming at me, every reload "WATCH YOUR MUZZLE!!! WATCH YOUR MUZZLE!!! Some of them have no concept of how a revo works, and so they get messed up when they see one used. You will not be effective unloading down or horizontal with a revolver.

 

[Wise_A]

This is one of the primary reasons why I kept clear of IDPA, USCSA, IPSC, etc. It seemed that around here, their legions were loaded with guys that just couldn't accept that their knowledge had any gaps in it. Their way or the hiway.

I would gather some documentation as to why muzzle-up revolver shooting is both allowed and perfectly safe, and then schedule a meeting with whoever the event organizer is.

If that doesn't get you anywhere--why do you want to spend your leisure time shooting with these guys?

If all it causes truly is furrowed brows, and no interference on the line for you--well, you're an adult. Why do you care what idiots think of you?

 

[shawn mccarver]

You can unload muzzle up if you want, but sooner or later you will end up with the ejector slamming shut with a case UNDER the ejector star.

The revolver reload was worked out decades ago, and it is NOT improved by trying to do what people used to do before it all got sorted out.

Muzzle UP to unload; muzzle DOWN to load.

If the "range officer" cannot understand this, then you are at the wrong range. Or, perhaps he has the wrong job.

 

[2lmaker]

original poster here, back after a day of competition.

I had a good day all in all, no stuck cases, but one reload only got 5 in the cylinder somehow. it happens.

These SO's and RO's are aware of what I am doing and are in no way making me do it. I am new here, it is all new to me, and I want to learn as I go. This marks me as a team player early on, and I could care less about the times at this point. When I do start to care about my times and getting higher classifications, it will be with the SO's and RO's knowledge that I was thinking about the club and range safety from the very first. I can go to a muzzle high ejection when I want to, or need to to get a better time, no problem. In fact, the only criticism I heard from any of them was when I asked for an opinion and they showed concern that I could possibly be sweeping my flattened left hand as I slap the ejector back if the cylinder hasn't opened. If it doesn't open, I could be DQ'd for the day, but I am not moving that mechanically or so quickly that I would sweep my left hand if my right hand doesn't feel the cylinder drop.

I think it is a much more forceful eject than I could get with just a thumb or finger in a high muzzle eject, but it has to be because I don't have gravity there to help if a case tries to stick on a grip or slip under the star.

For now, I will stick with it.

In a real life and death situation, if I have to reload, it will probably be muzzle high just because the ratio of reloads of that style that I have done to the muzzle down style is like about 10000 to 1. With dozens of different guns.

Every move I make in these competitions is still a very careful and controlled move and probably will be for a long time. Why not teach myself something new? I am probably going to be the winner in a class of one for awhile anyway!

Real life? as always- go for what you know. Thats why I have a revolver in the first place guys.

 

[Tanners Owner]

2lmaker- is your range TriCounty in Sherwood? I've shot there before & understand their sensitivity.

I too shoot wheelguns in IDPA in Wa- having a hoot doing so, especially when I score better then some bottom feeders

 

[2lmaker]

thats right. It used to be out in the void but the city is getting closer and a new road is coming pretty close, I really have to wonder how long it can stay there. I guess as long as there aren't any problems. The effort they have made there to keep the possibility of a stray to a minimum is impressive.

I drive in from a very rural area south of there and shoot with people that probably don't have any place else to shoot besides the BLM land outside of portland.

They need all the help and cooperation they can get.

 

[Steve912]

"In a real life and death situation, if I have to reload, it will probably be muzzle high just because the ratio of reloads of that style that I have done to the muzzle down style is like about 10000 to 1. With dozens of different guns."


'How you train is how you'll fight (function under pressure)'.

Google the Newhall incident and read about how CHP required officers to pocket their expended brass, "we don't want to waste time policing up your brass", and how it panned out, under pressure.

 

[2lmaker]

that is a good point. I am starting to falter just a bit in my steadfast desire to learn something new here.

If I get to a point where the muzzle down eject doesn't feel forced I will have to decide what muscle memory I want to have with me after that.

In a stressful situation most people can't even process and repeat information, learned that as a firefighter. Changing the trucks compliment from winter house fire and MVA set up to summer general equipment plus field and wildland fire gear caused ALL of us to do the "chinese fire drill" where we ran from compartment to compartment looking for the pieces we had stowed ourselves just days before.

I am pretty sure my "reload eject" mental compartment is currently stocked with high muzzle instructions, but it is something I have added a bit of confusion to, isn't it?

Good point, Steve912.

 

[NYlakesider]

my off the cuf commets --Long sorry

First off I was a long time (decades) RO at my large club. We held both state wide pistol and shotgun competitions there. I was also a NRA firearms instructor and one of the many courses we had was teaching PPC and we also taught a form of personal defense. This was in the revolver era and only a few oddballs (me include) sometimes carried a Semi.

Now of course the Semi is king. To be blunt here most of the ROs I have met lately know next to nothing about a revolver (nor are they interested in learning). A couple have told me no revolvers allowed on range would be a good thing. They would rather be boiled in oil than tell someone the revolver is a viable defense gun.

I learned to do a muzzle up to eject rounds , and a muzzle down to recharge. I used speed loaders for the most part! It is PERFECTLY safe, but most of the new breed ROs fail to understand how these guns work. I have been told on a few occasions not to do it that way. I tend to stand my ground, and ask them very nicely to please explain to me what I'm doing that is so wrong or where in the clubs safety rules I'm committing a sin. Talk about a deer in the headlight look!

I try to be as friendly as I can and I do respect the ROs authority (to a point) but if pushed will stand my ground. I do tend to get their attention when i tell some of them I was teaching defensive shooting, gun safety, carrying a concealed weapon before they ever were a twinkle in their fathers eyes.

I realize that a lot has changed over the years, some good some bad. I do tend to get a chuckle most times when I tell them even if you see me doing something you consider stupid, my stupidity will still be stupidly safe.

 

[2lmaker]

hey all, OP here.

These are not stupid people, I have nothing but respect for these RO's and SO's and the way they work with me and the other newbs.

The bottom line is that a high muzzle eject is OK and I can't imagine any of them getting even close to heated if I decide to do it that way.

Fact is, my first competition was done that way and the only thing said was that I can't get used to being muzzle high, that it is an exception made for revolver ejections and not a normal position for any gun, loaded or not, at this range, PERIOD.

I work with lathes and mills everyday, have for years. There are certain things that we all do everyday and get used to doing on the machines that we just plain have to do correctly or people get hurt.
The big chuck keys on the large lathes weigh about 4 to 5 pounds and if left in the chuck on a machine that gets turned on, well, there just isn't a safe place to be when that happens and standing in front of the lathe is a death sentence. The rule is, no one takes their hand off the chuck key while using it, ever. Leaving it in the chuck and walking away...well I guess you had better just keep walking because about ten of us would really like to put it someplace safe that you might find uncomfortable.

I have gotten to the point where I will even chew on someone for leaving the wrench in a chuck that isn't even mounted on a lathe, just because anything that leads to people being at all used to seeing it sitting that way is a step closer to a dangerous situation for us all.

To my way of thinking, my high muzzle reloads are going to happen in front of a bunch of shooters that absolutely cannot be lead one step closer to being used to seeing it and getting used to it. I will take one for the team if all it costs me is an extra second or two. Or more.

No way will I program myself to think it is the best reload style.

Not sure if I would let myself take a lower classification someday down the line because I am taking a few seconds longer to reload.

 

[AzShooter]

You gave an excellent description of how you want to do your reload. Keeping the muzzle horizontal, or slightly up is the fastest way to do it. I've had under 2 second reloads using moon clips and using Safariland Comp IIIs. You just need to practice.

I'm a Master Class shooter in ICORE and USPSA with my revolver. It takes lots of dedication and practice to be consistent.

Jerry Miculeck does the straight up ejection of cases and there is nobody in the world as fast as Jerry.