How Many Triple-Locks
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opoefc
US Veteran
If you research the published data in the books by Jinks, Pate & the S&WCA Journals, plus add maybe 50 guns shipped commercially in the US and another 50 to private sales in the UK, you can come up with a total that is probably pretty close to actual. When you're finished, postage answer here. Ed.
My S&W Catalog says about 6000, I figured somebody here might have more info.
A buddy's wanting to sell one, his Grandpa carried it in WWI.
Original holster.
Looks about Very Good. Maybe 80% blue, grips in surprisingly good shape & original.
Not converted.
Any value estimates without photos?
I'm ballparking at roughly $1000.
Wrong?
Denis
A buddy's wanting to sell one, his Grandpa carried it in WWI.
Original holster.
Looks about Very Good. Maybe 80% blue, grips in surprisingly good shape & original.
Not converted.
Any value estimates without photos?
I'm ballparking at roughly $1000.
Wrong?
Denis
TOTAL 455 BRITISH CONTRACT ERA TLs:
So we have 666 British contract produced military .455 TLs, and we have 837 (146 + 691) in .455 Mk II sold commercially all in the 44 # range, plus 5461 military 455 TLs in the British contract serial range for a total of 6964 .455 TLs.
ONLY COMMERCIAL 455 TLs AND 2nd MODELS:
1. Pre Brit contract ".44 Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs chambered 455 in the 44 HE serial # series:
Likely less than 100.
2. During Brit Military purchase production era ".44 Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs converted to 455 in the 44 HE serial # series:
146 + 691*
*It is believed that an unknown amount of the 691 sold on the commercial market were then purchased by a British purchasing agent and made their way across the big pond in that manner, to get all stamped up for eventual military use.
3. "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs:
NONE
4. "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 2nd Model":
1105* 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216]. Several of these were then purchased by various US home guard units for use in the US.
TOTAL 2042.
* Not included in this number are 739 "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 2nd Model"
revolvers chambered in 45 Colt presumably for the RCMP, and not part of the 14,500 Canadian military 455 Mk II purchases.
TOTAL TLs ALL CALIBERS:
Total regular production of all commercial and British contract TLs in all calibers and both serial ranges at something approximating 13872 + 837 + 666 + 5461 is 20836, including a dozen or so 45 S&W Special (45 Frankford prototypes for the Army trials of 1906) as near as I can figure, recognizing however that not all serial #s were actually built.
NOTE: There have been sightings and reliable reports of 2nd models with numbers that are lower than the usual 2nd Model serial range and T/Ls that are higher than the usual T/L range.
So we have 666 British contract produced military .455 TLs, and we have 837 (146 + 691) in .455 Mk II sold commercially all in the 44 # range, plus 5461 military 455 TLs in the British contract serial range for a total of 6964 .455 TLs.
ONLY COMMERCIAL 455 TLs AND 2nd MODELS:
1. Pre Brit contract ".44 Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs chambered 455 in the 44 HE serial # series:
Likely less than 100.
2. During Brit Military purchase production era ".44 Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs converted to 455 in the 44 HE serial # series:
146 + 691*
*It is believed that an unknown amount of the 691 sold on the commercial market were then purchased by a British purchasing agent and made their way across the big pond in that manner, to get all stamped up for eventual military use.
3. "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs:
NONE
4. "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 2nd Model":
1105* 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216]. Several of these were then purchased by various US home guard units for use in the US.
TOTAL 2042.
* Not included in this number are 739 "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 2nd Model"
revolvers chambered in 45 Colt presumably for the RCMP, and not part of the 14,500 Canadian military 455 Mk II purchases.
TOTAL TLs ALL CALIBERS:
Total regular production of all commercial and British contract TLs in all calibers and both serial ranges at something approximating 13872 + 837 + 666 + 5461 is 20836, including a dozen or so 45 S&W Special (45 Frankford prototypes for the Army trials of 1906) as near as I can figure, recognizing however that not all serial #s were actually built.
NOTE: There have been sightings and reliable reports of 2nd models with numbers that are lower than the usual 2nd Model serial range and T/Ls that are higher than the usual T/L range.
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Would have been built between 1914 (introduction, according to my Standard Catalog), and 1915-1917 or so to have been carried & used in WWI.
No British proofs visible in the photos sent.
So, roughly 7000 of this Triple Lock variant?
Anybody care to venture a guess on a price range, with holster?
Holster well used, but looks sound in the photo.
Standard military brown full-flap with post-strap retention.
Buddy has nobody to pass it onto & no idea what it's worth in the current market.
I may make him an offer & don't want to cheat him.
Guess I shoulda mentioned this one's a .455 Mark II HE 1st Model.
Denis
No British proofs visible in the photos sent.
So, roughly 7000 of this Triple Lock variant?
Anybody care to venture a guess on a price range, with holster?
Holster well used, but looks sound in the photo.
Standard military brown full-flap with post-strap retention.
Buddy has nobody to pass it onto & no idea what it's worth in the current market.
I may make him an offer & don't want to cheat him.
Guess I shoulda mentioned this one's a .455 Mark II HE 1st Model.
Denis
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Yes roughly 7000 but no British stamps is unusual.
We're assuming his grandfather was in the British army. Could he have been in the US army?
Occasionally we see 455 TLs used in the war by the British w/o British stamps. Generally it's thought that unmarked guns used in the war were initially sold commercially in the states or abroad, some were exported directly to Wilkinson Sword in London. Officers had to supply their own sidearms and could be from a few sources and unmarked.
Was it confirmed to be a 455 Mk II HE 1st Model by serial #?
We know the serial #s of the original 44 HE 1st Models factory converted to 455 before shipping: 666 that went to the British and the 146 sold commercially.
Do you have a serial # I could look up?
$1000 is a good ballpark figure.
We're assuming his grandfather was in the British army. Could he have been in the US army?
Occasionally we see 455 TLs used in the war by the British w/o British stamps. Generally it's thought that unmarked guns used in the war were initially sold commercially in the states or abroad, some were exported directly to Wilkinson Sword in London. Officers had to supply their own sidearms and could be from a few sources and unmarked.
Was it confirmed to be a 455 Mk II HE 1st Model by serial #?
We know the serial #s of the original 44 HE 1st Models factory converted to 455 before shipping: 666 that went to the British and the 146 sold commercially.
Do you have a serial # I could look up?
$1000 is a good ballpark figure.
Thanks.
I'm going off cellphone images & his description of use by his Grandpa.
I'll check for more info on serial, markings, and Grandpa tomorrow.
Blurry serial on rear of cylinder appears to be 124XX.
Don't know if it matches the rest of the gun.
All I have re Grandpa so far is that my buddy recalls in his now-lost-in-the-family-somewhere diary that the gun "killed at least two Germans who got lost and wound up in the Canadian trenches".
Denis
I'm going off cellphone images & his description of use by his Grandpa.
I'll check for more info on serial, markings, and Grandpa tomorrow.
Blurry serial on rear of cylinder appears to be 124XX.
Don't know if it matches the rest of the gun.
All I have re Grandpa so far is that my buddy recalls in his now-lost-in-the-family-somewhere diary that the gun "killed at least two Germans who got lost and wound up in the Canadian trenches".
Denis
Please let me know if the serial is 12493. Thing is it is because of the way they were serial numbered, some being built from 44 spec frames using their numbers and some built using 455 serial numbers their are guns with duplicatee numbers and I own 12493 in the 455 group and would liketo find the other gun with the same number even if I can't own it.
Your TL #12493 is a "44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock"; 1 of 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, built from remaining TL frames and numbered in the 44 Spl # serial range ~ 12 – 14,XXX range.
Yours does have a duplicate # but with a 455 HE - 2nd Model.
There are only 63 duplicate TLs: 44 1st Models (factory converted to 455) and with 44 serial range #s duplicated with 455 1st Models in the Brit contract serial range. There can't be TL duplicates higher than #5461 because that's the highest number 455 1st Models that exist in the Brit # range.
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Thanks. I guess I had it screwed around. Chances of finding a match even in a 2nd model are pretty slim anyway.
I'm thinking of another research thread.
The duplicate TLs have been talked about for years, maybe we can find out who has some of the 63.
Have you checked the SWCA database to see if the 2nd model #12493 is entered there?
The duplicate TLs have been talked about for years, maybe we can find out who has some of the 63.
Have you checked the SWCA database to see if the 2nd model #12493 is entered there?
Let's see, there's mine, Dave's, Bill's, Fred's, Joey's,..........
Sorry, just my TGIF morning humor.....
Jack Flash
Member
I can only offer a guess at price so take this with a grain of salt. I would think an HE 2nd model, (ie, not a TL) in the same condition you describe (80%, not converted, etc.) and with the original holster and military service provenance would easily go for $1,000 US.
A TL should bring half again as much at least. My humble and none-too-educated opinion. The others here may know more about the current market. It's just that the words "Triple Lock" now seem to be gaining the magic that once was reserved for the words "Registered Magnum".
I'm not trying to run the price up on you, but you said you wanted to be fair. As I said, this is just my two cents.
A TL should bring half again as much at least. My humble and none-too-educated opinion. The others here may know more about the current market. It's just that the words "Triple Lock" now seem to be gaining the magic that once was reserved for the words "Registered Magnum".
I'm not trying to run the price up on you, but you said you wanted to be fair. As I said, this is just my two cents.
rburg
Member
Not to detract from an otherwise excellent post... Why don't you just be honest and tell the truth. Not just all stamped up, but horribly defaced. As was the British custom.
Thanks guys.
A little more from my buddy this morning, but not much.
He doesn't know much about Grandpa beyond that he was Canadian.
Grandpa died when my buddy was 16 or 17, he did know him, but nothing about his military background beyond what he remembers concerning mention of the gun and the trenches in that long-lost diary. He was able to grab & stash the gun after the death because he knew his mother would get rid of it.
He's not in good health now, his two daughters have no interest in the gun, and he'd like to see it get into the hands of somebody who'd appreciate what it is.
He confirms the serial at 124X.
Looks like that last of what I thought was five digits in the blurry photo is a crown.
I can't tell in the photo, he says it's 124X followed by a crown.
If the gun were mine, I'd give you the entire number, but it's not, so some privacy there.
Asking him to check more carefully for other proofs, like NP, sword/arm, anything else.
Inferring from the diary remark about the Germans & Canadian trenches, assuming Grandpa was with a Canadian Army unit.
Did the CA get any of the 1st Models?
A little more from my buddy this morning, but not much.
He doesn't know much about Grandpa beyond that he was Canadian.
Grandpa died when my buddy was 16 or 17, he did know him, but nothing about his military background beyond what he remembers concerning mention of the gun and the trenches in that long-lost diary. He was able to grab & stash the gun after the death because he knew his mother would get rid of it.
He's not in good health now, his two daughters have no interest in the gun, and he'd like to see it get into the hands of somebody who'd appreciate what it is.
He confirms the serial at 124X.
Looks like that last of what I thought was five digits in the blurry photo is a crown.
I can't tell in the photo, he says it's 124X followed by a crown.
If the gun were mine, I'd give you the entire number, but it's not, so some privacy there.
Asking him to check more carefully for other proofs, like NP, sword/arm, anything else.
Inferring from the diary remark about the Germans & Canadian trenches, assuming Grandpa was with a Canadian Army unit.
Did the CA get any of the 1st Models?
More dribbling in.
Serial number on gripframe bottom he now says is followed by what he's describing as a "swirl or some kind of fancy 9".
Some very small mark on barrel top, he'll have to get a magnifier to look closer. "Almost looks like a clover."
I've asked for photos.
Denis
Serial number on gripframe bottom he now says is followed by what he's describing as a "swirl or some kind of fancy 9".
Some very small mark on barrel top, he'll have to get a magnifier to look closer. "Almost looks like a clover."
I've asked for photos.
Denis
The 9's back then resembled an upside down G. So, it very well could look like a "swirl".
The SCSW 4th says $2000 for VG up to $4000 for Excellent. The holster has value as well. Someone who collects them can give you a value. Does he also have the lanyard?
The SCSW 4th says $2000 for VG up to $4000 for Excellent. The holster has value as well. Someone who collects them can give you a value. Does he also have the lanyard?
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