Texas Star
US Veteran
Denis-
I haven't yet seen this ammo, but descriptions suggest an appearance sort of like the USAF PGU-12 round, but HP. Is that the case?
If you chrono it from a four-inch barrel, please post.
Federal's new load
- Thread starter Spencerivey101
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Denis-
I haven't yet seen this ammo, but descriptions suggest an appearance sort of like the USAF PGU-12 round, but HP. Is that the case?
If you chrono it from a four-inch barrel, please post.
Basically just a mostly-flush seated jacketed hollowpoint with a squared nose.
Jacket is very slightly curled inward at the nose, scored in 6 places to begin expansion.
Not a bonded bullet, the lead petals do not stay bound to the jacket petals as everything opens up.
I used up most of the 80 rounds I was sent, have no plans to run it through a 4-incher. Sorry.
Denis
Jacket is very slightly curled inward at the nose, scored in 6 places to begin expansion.
Not a bonded bullet, the lead petals do not stay bound to the jacket petals as everything opens up.
I used up most of the 80 rounds I was sent, have no plans to run it through a 4-incher. Sorry.
Denis
Rock185
US Veteran
Dpris, thanks for chronographing that ammo. I saw that near 1200 FPS average, and having chronographed a fair amount of ammo in various handguns, those velocities seemed suspect to me. You saved me having to buy a box of the stuff just to satisfy my curiosity as to actual velocities.
BTW, I chronographed some Federal 124 9MM +P HST in my S&W 940 with ~2" barrel. It's performance was about what was claimed for the 38 Spcl. load at 1195 FPS average. But if believed, the 38 load would have slightly exceeded it. Just didn't seem very likely to me....
BTW, I chronographed some Federal 124 9MM +P HST in my S&W 940 with ~2" barrel. It's performance was about what was claimed for the 38 Spcl. load at 1195 FPS average. But if believed, the 38 load would have slightly exceeded it. Just didn't seem very likely to me....
ContinentalOp
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While we're dissecting this incident, keep in mind a few things.
1. Reaction time. Both officers likely fired simultaneously and quickly, probably within a couple of seconds if they each fired 4-5 rounds (I'm making some assumptions not detailed in the article, but I think they're reasonable assumptions...I'm also assuming they only fired 9 rounds; they may have fired more that missed). It's entirely likely that within that timeframe they each may have fired a round or two in the time it took their brains to perceive the threat being neutralized and deciding to stop shooting.
2. I'm going to refer to Greg Ellifritz's study on "stopping power" (An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association), covering 1800 shootings over a 10-year period. I should note that his study didn't limit results to bullet type. I'm going to specifically refer to his comparison between .38 Special and 9mm effectiveness. According to his study, .38 Special required 1.87 shots to incapacitate, while 9mm required 2.45. His hypothesis was that, basically, the 9mm can be shot faster than the .38 Special, resulting in more shots being fired within the timeframe of the incident. I think this is a sound hypothesis, given the available data. So in the time frame that someone could've fired 2-3 shots from a 642, another, similarly-skilled person could've fired 4-5 shots from a Glock 19 (even with the NYPD's NY2 trigger).
3. I remember seeing the results of a study done based on NYPD's SOP9 reports, which details their shooting incidents, comparing the number of shots fired with revolvers to the number of shots fired with double-stack semi-autos. The time span covered was extensive, involving most, if not all, of the time they carried guns. It showed that there was a signficant increase in the number of shots fired per officer per incident after the switch to semi-autos. I have seen references to similar occurrences with LE agencies making the switch from revolvers to double-stack semi-autos. A reasonable conclusion would be that more rounds were fired because there were more rounds available.
When you start digging into incidents, there are a lot of factors involved, but the average of 2-3 shots fired per incident, within a span of a few seconds, still holds true, especially for non-LE shootings. Have there been incidents requiring more shots being fired? Of course. But those are the outliers.
Ultimately, prepare how you want. If you want to carry a 18-shot Glock 17 with 2 spare mags, a BUG with a reload, a pair of knives, pepper spray, flashlight, etc., then more power to you. If you want to carry a 642 with a speed strip, good on you. I personally believe it's far more important to do one's best to avoid trouble, but be able to use what you have if necessary, and have contingencies if what you have isn't enough. Even a Glock runs out of ammo at some point.
What I like about this article, is that it seems to vindicate the concept of using the inverted hollow base wadcutter for self defense. I realize that this new offering IS jacketed, but the fact remains, the idea of using the cylindrical wadcutter for self defense as advanced by handloaders almost 50 years ago (or more) is being given credibility!
riverrat38
US Veteran
I have not fired any of this ammo, but it appears to have two attributes that differentiates it from regular 150 gr lead WC's.
The first is that, at 130 gr, it is likely to shoot to point of aim for my M442, which seems to be regulated for 125 gr plus pee. My 640Pro shot to point of aim with 158 gr ammo, but I have had three Airweight Centennials that all worked best with 125 gr, so I don't think its just a fluke in this case.
The second difference, if I have read the info correctly, is that the bullets are plated/jacketed. This means that I could actually shoot this ammo at my local indoor range. Not so with lead WC's, like BB, which I also like.
I really don't have any alternate ranges that allow lead ammo, and I like to be able to shoot some of what I carry. I currently carry the Speer 135 gr SB, but I will have to think about using the Federal offering.
Best,
Rick
The first is that, at 130 gr, it is likely to shoot to point of aim for my M442, which seems to be regulated for 125 gr plus pee. My 640Pro shot to point of aim with 158 gr ammo, but I have had three Airweight Centennials that all worked best with 125 gr, so I don't think its just a fluke in this case.
The second difference, if I have read the info correctly, is that the bullets are plated/jacketed. This means that I could actually shoot this ammo at my local indoor range. Not so with lead WC's, like BB, which I also like.
I really don't have any alternate ranges that allow lead ammo, and I like to be able to shoot some of what I carry. I currently carry the Speer 135 gr SB, but I will have to think about using the Federal offering.
Best,
Rick
TomkinsSP
Member
In 1989 unless you were on some special squad you had a 5 or six shot .38 15 to 18 rounds. Supposed to be LSWC. Department issued (range ammo) LHBWC was commonly carried as well. Everyone I knew had a backup with 5 more rounds. We qualified at 25 yards, outdoors. We had been taught to make timed deliberate shots and make each shot count.
Fast forward a few years, higher capacity magazines, less strigent qualifications, less effective rounds (fmj 9mm, even GDHP are not as effective SD shapes as full WC and SWC). Of course it takes many more rounds to stop an agressor.
Its a free country, some might decide to carry a G17 and eighty rounds, me,I have carried a M40 for 40 years, its loaded with wadcutters and I always carry 5 more, but since retiring don't usually carry more than that. A defensive handgun gets you out out of a bad situation, you should not be engaging in a running gun bsttle, unless you just joined Seal Team 6.
My lhbwcs are all loaded hb, they work really, really well that way. LDEWCs, load them upside down if you want, work about the same. Carry WCs should be lead not plated.
Fast forward a few years, higher capacity magazines, less strigent qualifications, less effective rounds (fmj 9mm, even GDHP are not as effective SD shapes as full WC and SWC). Of course it takes many more rounds to stop an agressor.
Its a free country, some might decide to carry a G17 and eighty rounds, me,I have carried a M40 for 40 years, its loaded with wadcutters and I always carry 5 more, but since retiring don't usually carry more than that. A defensive handgun gets you out out of a bad situation, you should not be engaging in a running gun bsttle, unless you just joined Seal Team 6.
My lhbwcs are all loaded hb, they work really, really well that way. LDEWCs, load them upside down if you want, work about the same. Carry WCs should be lead not plated.
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mike campbell
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"...38 Special required 1.87 shots to incapacitate, while 9mm required 2.45."
Don't you just love statistics? Indisputable evidence that the 9mm is a superior "stopper" to the .38spl.
Out of the dozens of whitetails I've seen shot with a firearm two instances stand out. One was killed and dropped instantly to a single round from a .44 magnum handgun...and not a single drop of blood was shed. The buck was hit at the base of the antler, opening a 4" long crack. The bullet bounced off but the skull plate was fractured into several pieces. Showed me what 900 ft-lbs of energy delivered in close proximity to the central nervous system will do.
The second was hit twice with a 30/06. The first went through the boiler room at only 30 yds. The deer bolted and ran, only to be hit a second time inside 60 yds, impacting about 3" from the first shot. Nobody would deny "perfect shot placement." He ran a total of about 140 yds before dropping. I could literally have placed my forearm through the space his heart and lungs had once occupied. Was he dead from the first shot? Absolutely. Was he "incapacitated"? Eventually.
Don't you just love statistics? Indisputable evidence that the 9mm is a superior "stopper" to the .38spl.
Out of the dozens of whitetails I've seen shot with a firearm two instances stand out. One was killed and dropped instantly to a single round from a .44 magnum handgun...and not a single drop of blood was shed. The buck was hit at the base of the antler, opening a 4" long crack. The bullet bounced off but the skull plate was fractured into several pieces. Showed me what 900 ft-lbs of energy delivered in close proximity to the central nervous system will do.
The second was hit twice with a 30/06. The first went through the boiler room at only 30 yds. The deer bolted and ran, only to be hit a second time inside 60 yds, impacting about 3" from the first shot. Nobody would deny "perfect shot placement." He ran a total of about 140 yds before dropping. I could literally have placed my forearm through the space his heart and lungs had once occupied. Was he dead from the first shot? Absolutely. Was he "incapacitated"? Eventually.
ContinentalOp
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You might want to actually read what I posted and the article I linked. The author stated they're about the same in terms of performance, along with the other service calibers, but that the difference in incapacitation is likely attributable to how quickly each can be fired.
I, personally, don't rely extensively on quantitative data as there are a lot of variables affecting it. I only mentioned it to point out the difference in shooting speed and how that might affect the number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting. Qualitatively, service caliber rounds all perform more or less the same. Pick the one you prefer and practice.
Whether or not you agree with me, the most important things are still: avoid trouble whenever possible, be able to use what you have if necessary, and be prepared in case what you have isn't enough.
Apologies to the OP for sidetracking the thread.
I carry my trusty 638 with a 2.5" bbl every single day at work as a police officer. It's my BUG and it will do the job required. Besides, most documented cases of officers using their BUG's were up close, very personal and usually after the proverbial "feces hit the fan".
My dept. thankfully issues the Speer .38SPL+P 135gr. GDHP-SB load that has worked quite well. It's also my to and from work gun since a Glock 35 with a TLR1 is not fun to pack around concealed.
I read an NYPD Det. used the aforementioned Speer load on a miscreant in the subway from a 1-7/8" J frame. The suspect was DRT after it punched thru the perp's arm. It worked as advertised.
That new 'Micro' round looks suspiciously like an old lead HBWC round to me?
My dept. thankfully issues the Speer .38SPL+P 135gr. GDHP-SB load that has worked quite well. It's also my to and from work gun since a Glock 35 with a TLR1 is not fun to pack around concealed.
I read an NYPD Det. used the aforementioned Speer load on a miscreant in the subway from a 1-7/8" J frame. The suspect was DRT after it punched thru the perp's arm. It worked as advertised.
That new 'Micro' round looks suspiciously like an old lead HBWC round to me?
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Keep in mind folks; ALL HANDGUN ROUNDS SUCK! With that said, I have posted before on this forum my own experiences on the streets particularly 2 incidents I was involved in.
First case: A dude survived a .45 ACP Starfire round just under his sternum, lived to testify against his attacker. Should have been dead! But he wasn't...
Second case: A portly gent sustained a GSW to his gut (lower right abdomen) from a .22LR fired from a shoddy old SA revolver by his drunken nephew. He bled to death internally and died in front of me. Autopsy revealed his liver was eviscerated by the tiny bullet ergo the fatal blood loss.
One never knows, bullets do weird things when they leave the muzzle. Just aim for the largest target on the perp and make your shots count. All pistol loadings SUCK for self defense. We are all behind the 8 ball with a handgun. Simple hard truth.
First case: A dude survived a .45 ACP Starfire round just under his sternum, lived to testify against his attacker. Should have been dead! But he wasn't...
Second case: A portly gent sustained a GSW to his gut (lower right abdomen) from a .22LR fired from a shoddy old SA revolver by his drunken nephew. He bled to death internally and died in front of me. Autopsy revealed his liver was eviscerated by the tiny bullet ergo the fatal blood loss.
One never knows, bullets do weird things when they leave the muzzle. Just aim for the largest target on the perp and make your shots count. All pistol loadings SUCK for self defense. We are all behind the 8 ball with a handgun. Simple hard truth.
TomkinsSP
Member
(In robot voice) No, it is a com-ple-t-ley new tech-nol-ogy, jus-ti-fying its com-ple-t-ley new price. Sin-cere-ly Mar-ket-ing.
Buy it or don't.
I'm not trying to sell it, and I'm not getting into caliber wars.
I AM, in response to the original post, mentioning the test results I got with this load, and discussing technical aspects.
It's a new adaptation in using a jacketed mostly-flat-nosed HP, which can be driven faster than the old soft lead wadcutter.
It's seated mostly flush, to reduce internal air space & keep powder burn more consistent through a variety of different angled shooting positions.
This is actually a valid concept.
It does maintain decent velocities through a short snub barrel, traveling faster & with more terminal energy than a target wadcutter in factory ammunition.
It does, based on limited water-jugging, expand & penetrate well, a good combination of two desirable features in a defensive load.
Aside from handloads, which are not the subject of this thread, show me similar velocities, expansion, and penetration in a FACTORY 148-grain lead full-wadcutter load.
Even show me a factory-made reversed wadcutter load that can match the HST in performance.
Even if we open up to handloaded reversed wadcutters, show me the results of accuracy, velocity, expansion, and penetration there-of, and then we can talk further.
If you don't like the HST, move on.
We've discussed it technically here, because some ARE interested.
If you're not one of those, no need for you to pay any more attention.
And another installment of "Which Caliber's Better?" also has no place in this conversation.
It'll never be resolved & the original post's question didn't ask it.
Denis
I'm not trying to sell it, and I'm not getting into caliber wars.
I AM, in response to the original post, mentioning the test results I got with this load, and discussing technical aspects.
It's a new adaptation in using a jacketed mostly-flat-nosed HP, which can be driven faster than the old soft lead wadcutter.
It's seated mostly flush, to reduce internal air space & keep powder burn more consistent through a variety of different angled shooting positions.
This is actually a valid concept.
It does maintain decent velocities through a short snub barrel, traveling faster & with more terminal energy than a target wadcutter in factory ammunition.
It does, based on limited water-jugging, expand & penetrate well, a good combination of two desirable features in a defensive load.
Aside from handloads, which are not the subject of this thread, show me similar velocities, expansion, and penetration in a FACTORY 148-grain lead full-wadcutter load.
Even show me a factory-made reversed wadcutter load that can match the HST in performance.
Even if we open up to handloaded reversed wadcutters, show me the results of accuracy, velocity, expansion, and penetration there-of, and then we can talk further.
If you don't like the HST, move on.
We've discussed it technically here, because some ARE interested.
If you're not one of those, no need for you to pay any more attention.
And another installment of "Which Caliber's Better?" also has no place in this conversation.
It'll never be resolved & the original post's question didn't ask it.
Denis
muddocktor
Member
Very well said, Dpris.
Tradewind36
US Veteran
I saw this ammo today at Walmart, about $25 for 20 rounds.
I don't know who started that saying but I totally disagree with it.
F224
Member
I posted this elsewhere in this forum, my previous test results:
Federal 38spl + P HST Micro
Well I had a chance to chronograph this ammo. At about a buck a round, I only shot five through each of three guns. Not truly scientific with such a small sample, but it appears to be right on for factory claims regarding consistency of velocity, but in my 2" & 3" guns the velocity is well below the factory published number of 890 fps. I do not see on Federals website what barrel length or type they are using for their numbers.
2" S&W M337:
High 800 fps
Low 799 fps
Yes, a total for five shots of 1 fps variance.
3" Custom Colt Agent:
High 859 fps
Low 855 fps
Extreme spread of 4 fps.
4" S&W M67:
High 889 fps
Low 885 fps
Extreme spread of 4 fps.
Just for a control group, I then fired five Federal 148gr HBWC Gold Metal Match through the M67 for an average velocity of 753 fps and an extreme spread of 26 fps and a standard deviation of 10 fps. This M67 will shoot into 3.5" at 50 yards with the FGMM ammo off of sandbags.
Ammo lot # R12P1394144 Federal Premium P38HST1S 130gr HSP JHP 130gr
Federal 38spl + P HST Micro
Well I had a chance to chronograph this ammo. At about a buck a round, I only shot five through each of three guns. Not truly scientific with such a small sample, but it appears to be right on for factory claims regarding consistency of velocity, but in my 2" & 3" guns the velocity is well below the factory published number of 890 fps. I do not see on Federals website what barrel length or type they are using for their numbers.
2" S&W M337:
High 800 fps
Low 799 fps
Yes, a total for five shots of 1 fps variance.
3" Custom Colt Agent:
High 859 fps
Low 855 fps
Extreme spread of 4 fps.
4" S&W M67:
High 889 fps
Low 885 fps
Extreme spread of 4 fps.
Just for a control group, I then fired five Federal 148gr HBWC Gold Metal Match through the M67 for an average velocity of 753 fps and an extreme spread of 26 fps and a standard deviation of 10 fps. This M67 will shoot into 3.5" at 50 yards with the FGMM ammo off of sandbags.
Ammo lot # R12P1394144 Federal Premium P38HST1S 130gr HSP JHP 130gr
