Self Defense: 357 Magnum VS .38 Special

[gwpercle]

Carry the round you can shoot most accurately and shoot with a rather fast follow up shot .
Only hits count .
A hit with a 38 Special beats Missing 5 times with a 357 magnum ...
Seven Ways To Sunday .
Missing will get you killed ...
Carry whatever you can hit with ...
As my Dad would say " Boy ...don't be acting the Fool !"
Gary

 

[Brian Parrish]

Be specific

Bloviate - to talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.

I am a teacher and a preacher so I come by it honestly.
With practice maybe I can improve my writing.
I noticed you quoted my entire bloviation.

Echoing your other comment, my friend who has spent his life as an EMT always said to use the 357 magnum because "when I get there, there is nothing for me to fix!"
Your chart from Boston is interesting and pertinent so good job. I just want everyone to remember that people do not die instantly the way they do on TV.

 

[SouthNarc]

Bloviate - to talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.

Maybe you can succinctly explain your personal experience gathered from all those pistol fights you were involved in with….the Air Force?

 

[SouthNarc]

What agency or branch did you say you served in again?

I didn’t.

But if you’re asking 3 years in the Army 3rd BN 75th Ranger Regiment from 1986-1989 then 21 years in LE with a southern sheriff’s department, 11 of that in a drug task force. Currently a full time firearms and tactics instructor who teaches in 48 states, 11 countries outside of the U.S., four branches of the military, 6 federal law enforcement agencies and I’ve held a small contract within a small section of the intelligence community organized under the DoD for the last 8 years.

That’s the summarized version. Google my username or ShivWorks if you’re inclined for more.

 

[dwever]

I didn't initially mention my time in the Army either since you can only choose one branch of service on this site's profile selection, and I chose my enlisted time in the USAF. Assuming backgrounds is virtually always incomplete.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Gold Dots? Wadcutters?

My favorite surveillance video of like forever I cannot find on the internet anymore sorry. So take this for what it is worth. An off-duty cop enters a check-cashing, payday loan place and discovers a robbery in progress when he walks up to the counter beside the perp and sees the gun pointed at the clerk.

The cop falls immediately to the ground and draws his 9mm and fires upward at him and the round goes through the bad guy's heart and destroys it! The man does not die instantly instead he jumps down on top of the cop and pounds on his face with one hand, while the cop squirms, controlling the gun arm at the elbow. Suddenly the perp jumps up and runs outside and dies in the parking lot in front of the store.

I can't remember exactly how long he kept fighting. Every time I remember the story it gets longer and longer ya know. Whatever number i suggest, someone will say it is impossible, but the point is that any of the calibers suggested would have been equally as adequate and inadequate. Caliber was not decisive in that engagement. Magazine capacity was not decisive either. The non-expanding Gold Dot would have been fine.

Somehow the cop knew his gun had already done all it could do, so he spent the rest of the fight staying alive, preventing the dying man from killing him. Maybe one of the retired LEO's here can tell me why he went to the floor as part of the draw, but what I could see was that the backdrop for the cop's shot was the ceiling instead of one of the other customers. He also shot through soft tissue going under the perp's ribs. Did he mean to do that?? From Krav Maga I could see that the way he controlled the bad guy's gun arm at the elbow was expertly done. Was he trained that way?

Uh-oh, I'm bloviating again...sorry.

 

[SouthNarc]

Assuming backgrounds is virtually always incomplete.

And marginalizing a well reasoned and composed post by calling it “bloviating” that was written by a minister is fairly disrespectful and may very well invite other people’s attention towards you.

On the background note you want to flesh your’s out or just call it done here and now?

 

[venomballistics]

I used to run Mozambique drills with a 629, but that's me. I'd have no issue with a 357. Others are not so seasoned.

 

[venomballistics]

My favorite surveillance video of like forever I cannot find on the internet anymore sorry. So take this for what it is worth. An off-duty cop enters a check-cashing, payday loan place and discovers a robbery in progress when he walks up to the counter beside the perp and sees the gun pointed at the clerk.

The cop falls immediately to the ground and draws his 9mm and fires upward at him and the round goes through the bad guy's heart and destroys it! The man does not die instantly instead he jumps down on top of the cop and pounds on his face with one hand, while the cop squirms, controlling the gun arm at the elbow. Suddenly the perp jumps up and runs outside and dies in the parking lot in front of the store.

I can't remember exactly how long he kept fighting. Every time I remember the story it gets longer and longer ya know. Whatever number i suggest, someone will say it is impossible, but the point is that any of the calibers suggested would have been equally as adequate and inadequate. Caliber was not decisive in that engagement. Magazine capacity was not decisive either. The non-expanding Gold Dot would have been fine.

Somehow the cop knew his gun had already done all it could do, so he spent the rest of the fight staying alive, preventing the dying man from killing him. Maybe one of the retired LEO's here can tell me why he went to the floor as part of the draw, but what I could see was that the backdrop for the cop's shot was the ceiling instead of one of the other customers. He also shot through soft tissue going under the perp's ribs. Did he mean to do that?? From Krav Maga I could see that the way he controlled the bad guy's gun arm at the elbow was expertly done. Was he trained that way?

Uh-oh, I'm bloviating again...sorry.

sounds a bit like the Miami shootout where Platt took a 9MM black talon to the boiler room and proceeded to cut up a team of feds while suffering a fatal wound.
There's always going to be cases like this where the dead are kinda slow to get the memo.

 

[rwsmith]

To me the drill is.......

My favorite surveillance video of like forever I cannot find on the internet anymore sorry. So take this for what it is worth. An off-duty cop enters a check-cashing, payday loan place and discovers a robbery in progress when he walks up to the counter beside the perp and sees the gun pointed at the clerk.

The cop falls immediately to the ground and draws his 9mm and fires upward at him and the round goes through the bad guy's heart and destroys it! The man does not die instantly instead he jumps down on top of the cop and pounds on his face with one hand, while the cop squirms, controlling the gun arm at the elbow. Suddenly the perp jumps up and runs outside and dies in the parking lot in front of the store.

I can't remember exactly how long he kept fighting. Every time I remember the story it gets longer and longer ya know. Whatever number i suggest, someone will say it is impossible, but the point is that any of the calibers suggested would have been equally as adequate and inadequate. Caliber was not decisive in that engagement. Magazine capacity was not decisive either. The non-expanding Gold Dot would have been fine.

Somehow the cop knew his gun had already done all it could do, so he spent the rest of the fight staying alive, preventing the dying man from killing him. Maybe one of the retired LEO's here can tell me why he went to the floor as part of the draw, but what I could see was that the backdrop for the cop's shot was the ceiling instead of one of the other customers. He also shot through soft tissue going under the perp's ribs. Did he mean to do that?? From Krav Maga I could see that the way he controlled the bad guy's gun arm at the elbow was expertly done. Was he trained that way?

Uh-oh, I'm bloviating again...sorry.

...to keep firing until the threat is neutralized. After I emptied my gun and threw it at him, then I would wrestle with him.

 

[IAM Rand]

I tried to resist actually posting something here. This argument is just as worthless as what kind of ammo you use or what caliber is best. The OP has presented a false dichotomy, is one better than the other. Neither is good nor bad/better or worse. I don't care if it is a 2 inch barrel or a 10 inch.

The best firearm is the one that you can shoot accurately as quickly as you can while still keeping that accuracy. As I posted on my Keith my 38 thread. I believe you can get ammo hot for the 38. It seems to still be a relevant form of protection at the very least. People that say the 357 is on the outs are just saying that to spark a response. If it was, then gun makers would stop making 357. The 38 would be long gone by now.

If you have to start a thread, make it a relevant one.

 

[BKLooney]

I've been shooting .357 since I was about 15, if I could only ever choose one cartridge the .357 would be my choice. But when I carry a revolver it is always .38 special, as I type this there's a model 642 in my pocket.

 

[rwsmith]

I find it worthwhile......

I tried to resist actually posting something here. This argument is just as worthless as what kind of ammo you use or what caliber is best. The OP has presented a false dichotomy, is one better than the other. Neither is good nor bad/better or worse. I don't care if it is a 2 inch barrel or a 10 inch.

The best firearm is the one that you can shoot accurately as quickly as you can while still keeping that accuracy. As I posted on my Keith my 38 thread. I believe you can get ammo hot for the 38. It seems to still be a relevant form of protection at the very least. People that say the 357 is on the outs are just saying that to spark a response. If it was, then gun makers would stop making 357. The 38 would be long gone by now.

If you have to start a thread, make it a relevant one.

I find it worthwhile to draw on other's knowledge and experience, so I don't find these discussions superfluous. I've gotten some good leads on people actually involved in forensics from here. But no matter what I hear or read, I have to use my own judgement.

Choose well, train well, react well, shoot well, hit well. Until it stops well.

Oh yeah. 44 magnums are proven man stoppers. I can shoot one ok, but it ain't gonna be what I carry, even if it's in a 'J' frame. Even with Pachmehr grips.

 

[venomballistics]

Oh yeah. 44 magnums are proven man stoppers. I can shoot one ok, but it ain't gonna be what I carry, even if it's in a 'J' frame. Even with Pachmehr grips.

I used to carry one. Thing is though, I was more rural then than I was urban. It was more likely that i'd have a run in with something that had more feet than I did and I carried accordingly.
This choice would overlap into urban environments where I could "afford to make due"
I used that 44 a LOT, and it taught me a few things along the way.
In tailoring a handload I felt a prudent minimum for combat, I found myself gravitating to something ballistically similar to the upper end of 45 ACP. You can guess what I carry today.

 

[rockquarry]

The hard core "what if" gunfighting aspirants are never short of words. Will the derangement ever cease? Pointless....

 

[pharmer]

Well, I can carry this loaded with 5 rds of the "magical" Federal 125 gr HP moving at over 1,000 fps. I'd be well armed.

I do carry this 9mm with 15 rds of 124 gr Federal HP moving at about 1,000 fps. It is larger and weighs a couple oz more but folks should carry what they think is best. (The 6906 worked for 27 years previously.)

Joe

 

[Brian Parrish]

Some agreement with you.

I tried to resist actually posting something here. This argument is just as worthless as what kind of ammo you use or what caliber is best. The OP has presented a false dichotomy, is one better than the other. Neither is good nor bad/better or worse. I don't care if it is a 2 inch barrel or a 10 inch.

The best firearm is the one that you can shoot accurately as quickly as you can while still keeping that accuracy. As I posted on my Keith my 38 thread. I believe you can get ammo hot for the 38. It seems to still be a relevant form of protection at the very least. People that say the 357 is on the outs are just saying that to spark a response. If it was, then gun makers would stop making 357. The 38 would be long gone by now.

If you have to start a thread, make it a relevant one.

You are right about "a .38 on the hip". There is a well-regarded martial arts instructor who says that time and again, real self-defense devolves to a .38 on the hip.

You are wrong (or at least I disagree and admit that I may be the one in the wrong that the original post is irrelevant. there is a generational difference at work.

Some of the Gen Z's will say "OK Boomer" and thereby dismiss and discount fifty years of experience, study and hard-learned lessons. Part of the difference shows on social media platforms where they meet and reinforce each other's mistakes. I may have done the same back in my day, I ain't admitting nothin'. There are younger men who literally mock anyone who carries a revolver!

The OP also mentioned people who are afraid to shoot +p rounds in their .38 revolvers. Some of these men seem to have overestimated the awesome magical killing power of those rounds. I am convinced that they are not interested in preserving their fragile handguns, rather they want to believe that they are carrying a weapon that is worthy of defeating every villain in the Marvel universe!

You have good things to say to them, IAM Rand, which they need to hear. Of course it is not your responsibility to teach them. You take care of your own family and your own students first. But if you will, there are some, maybe very few, smart ones who will listen to you. Some of these men and women simply had no worthy person in their life to give them the kind of guidance that you can. You may not like having to repeat yourself but that sure does not seem to bother others here on our forum, so go ahead. I have appreciated your thought from time to time if I never said so.

Respect to you!
BrianD

 

[fishwishin]

My S&W 640-1 is the backup to my backup. When it gets the call it is ONLY fed .357’s and that is all it will ever eat when in that role.

 

[SouthNarc]

You are right about "a .38 on the hip". There is a well-regarded martial arts instructor who says that time and again, real self-defense devolves to a .38 on the hip.

You are wrong (or at least I disagree and admit that I may be the one in the wrong that the original post is irrelevant. there is a generational difference at work.

Some of the Gen Z's will say "OK Boomer" and thereby dismiss and discount fifty years of experience, study and hard-learned lessons. Part of the difference shows on social media platforms where they meet and reinforce each other's mistakes. I may have done the same back in my day, I ain't admitting nothin'. There are younger men who literally mock anyone who carries a revolver!

The OP also mentioned people who are afraid to shoot +p rounds in their .38 revolvers. Some of these men seem to have overestimated the awesome magical killing power of those rounds. I am convinced that they are not interested in preserving their fragile handguns, rather they want to believe that they are carrying a weapon that is worthy of defeating every villain in the Marvel universe!

You have good things to say to them, IAM Rand, which they need to hear. Of course it is not your responsibility to teach them. You take care of your own family and your own students first. But if you will, there are some, maybe very few, smart ones who will listen to you. Some of these men and women simply had no worthy person in their life to give them the kind of guidance that you can. You may not like having to repeat yourself but that sure does not seem to bother others here on our forum, so go ahead. I have appreciated your thought from time to time if I never said so.

Respect to you!
BrianD

Brian as a 55 year old man I frequently catch myself sounding like my grandfather when talking about “the younger generation”. The reality of the world is that the youngsters have seen more sustained combat over their lifetime than any previous generation. They certainly have their issues just like any other generation. But a current operator at DEVGRU that came into that unit in 2006 and stayed operational with a squadron until 2013, has seen more combat and done more hits as a 35 year old man, than the entire unit did in the 80s and 90s.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It's a shame how only a few people can ruin a perfectly good thread.
I decided to close the thread because cleaning it up would have deleted about half the posts and issued several dings.
Bickering, insulting and off topic posts are all over this thread.

I'm sorry to those who were participating in this thread in good faith but this thread can't be left open.