Found and bought a pristine Model 4003 at LGS + Couple of Questions . . .

[Denver Dick]

I'm coming into a few hundred dollars the end of this week and, since I was running an errand near my LGS yesterday, I thought I would stop by to see what's new in the consignment counter. There to my surprise was a lovely Model 4003. I'm use to spotting at least a little ding or two when I examine an alloy frame 3rd Gen auto. However, as I handled the pistol (no box and no mag) I noted that the frame condition was perfect. As I examined the rest of the pistol, it appeared to be 99%+ or like new. I field stripped it and, from the wear pattern (or lack there of), it appears to have fired around 50 or maybe a 100 rounds.

It had been placed in the counter just last Friday. Frankly, I was a little surprised it made it through the weekend, well, maybe not since it hadn't yet been placed on their website and was lacking a magazine. California requires 10rd mags and 4003/4006 10 rounders are difficult to come by. Fortunately, I have a 4006 I picked up back in around 2008 LNIB without mags and purchased three new ones from S&W. Back then one could order 3rd Gen parts cheap direct from S&W so I also stocked up on enough followers, 10rd springs and base plates to rebuild the three mags twice over, if necessary. (Back then I figured 3rd Gen parts were going to dry up someday.)

Anyway, I bought the pistol, serial number TZJ49xx. Based on my research, it appears to have have produced in 1993, the last year of 4003 production. Two things I found interesting about the pistol. One was that although it has a flash/hard chromed trigger, the hammer appears to be blue MIM (or just blue steel [based on posts below it appears it is actually blue forged steel). The other thing is that it wears rubber a Hogue grip, the one with the S&W logo. I'm a little familiar with this grip since in 2008 I ordered one from S&W parts department for my 4006.

I believe 1993/94 was the transition period for the MIM parts (my mid 1995 Mod. 4006 has MIM hammer and trigger [based on posts below it appears they are actually both blue forged steel]). Have any of you guys seen this "salt & pepper" trigger/hammer comb on a 3rd Gen before? And, the other question is are any of you aware of 3rd Gens shipping with the Hogue S&W logo grips?

In any event, it was great to add another pristine 3rd Gen to my collection.

 

[Sevens]

I am aware of the "salt & pepper combo" as you termed it (neat term!) as one of my 4006's had it. I don't have that particular 4006 anymore, so I can't fish it out of the safe and look at it.

I don't believe the black hammer is actually MIM -- and forgive me, I am going from memory. If it has articulated cutouts in the sides of the hammer, it is definitely MIM. If it is flat on each side and solid, I believe it is a forged part.

I have never actually heard an explanation of why they moved from the flash-chrome to the black/blued forged parts... and the matched MIM hammer/trigger was soon to follow. But it does seem to me that the salt/pepper setup was prevalent on the 40xx pistols.

As to the Hogue grip, I know you aren't dumb -- so apologies in advance if this sounds like I am suggesting that you are. But I say look CLOSE and ensure that it is indeed the S&W logo that you see. I have been fooled many times myself. The stylized "H" in the bloated Hogue black rubber grip does sometimes trick the eyes.

With that said, I also believe the Hogue grip with genuine S&W logo in it does exist, and I look very much forward to hearing the when/why and for which models this grip appeared. I can say that the CS Models had them, but those of course are a subcompact, so it's safe to say that this grip didn't come from one of those.

Nice pickup!

 

[Denver Dick]

. . .

I don't believe the black hammer is actually MIM -- and forgive me, I am going from memory. If it has articulated cutouts in the sides of the hammer, it is definitely MIM. If it is flat on each side and solid, I believe it is a forged part.
. . .

As to the Hogue grip, I know you aren't dumb -- so apologies in advance if this sounds like I am suggesting that you are. But I say look CLOSE and ensure that it is indeed the S&W logo that you see. I have been fooled many times myself. The stylized "H" in the bloated Hogue black rubber grip does sometimes trick the eyes.

With that said, I also believe the Hogue grip with genuine S&W logo in it does exist, and I look very much forward to hearing the when/why and for which models this grip appeared. I can say that the CS Models had them, but those of course are a subcompact, so it's safe to say that this grip didn't come from one of those.

Nice pickup!

As for the hammer, I believe you are correct and that it is a forged part. I was just hedging my bets in the original post.

As for the grip, you are correct that one has to look closely at the logo to tell, but as I noted in my original post, I put one on my 1995 Model 4006, so I know what to look for. (See photo) The original owner may have put one on the 4003, but I believe he would've had get it direct from S&W. Of course, in the long run it doesn't really matter if it came from the factory with the grip or if the original owner installed it. Since I really like the grip on my 4006, I'm sure I'll like the one on the lighter 4003 when I shoot it.

 

[JohnHL]

Have any of you guys seen this "salt & pepper" trigger/hammer comb on a 3rd Gen before?

Hi, Denver Dick!

This question has come up before and the answer to it and a lot of significant information regarding the development of the S&W 40 caliber pistols can be found directly above this post in the Notable Thread Index, specifically:

4006's - information/ history/ tidbits??

It is a long thread, but here is the quick answer to your question:

During the testing of the 40 caliber pistols it was discovered that cracks were developing on the bottom of the slide in the area of the disconnector cut.
It was determined that this was caused by the hammer being more violently smacked rearward by the higher slide velocity created by the harsher recoil pulse of the 40s&w cartridge.
The hammer then rebounded off the frame and struck the bottom of the slide at a vulnerable spot.
A lighter weight hammer would solve the problem but at the time, S&W's regular production spur hammers were all forged (black) or forged and flash-chromed (silver) and therefore, too heavy.

Fortunately, S&W had in their Performance Center inventory the hammer you have on your very early 4003, lightened for 28% faster lock time on competition pistols.

If you look closely at the rear of your hammer, you will see it has been hollowed out and is also thinner in profile.
This hammer was never flash-chromed and was expensive to manufacture.

S&W soon replaced this PC hammer on .40s&w pistols with a black forged hammer with a big hole through it. (They also went with the "matching" black trigger on the stainless pistols as this combination was becoming stylish.)

When the MIM hammer came on line it was light enough and became the standard spur hammer for all models.
Of course the spurless forged hammers were light enough but would not satisfy customers who wanted a spur hammer.

So no. The combination of a silver trigger and a black hammer was not used on any other standard production run of S&W pistols.
There are no 40s&w, 3rd gen pistols that came from the factory with a silver spurred hammer.

And the replacement of the lightened hammer with the heavier forged, flash-chromed hammer is likely to result in a premature failure.

John

 

[Sevens]

Fantastic info right there!

 

[Denver Dick]

Wow! Thank YOU, JohnHL . . . good stuff!


You not only answered my question about the 1993 Mod. 4003's "salt and pepper" trigger/hammer, you also explained the big hole in the hammer of my 1995 Mod. 4006.


Ahhhhhh, life is good when one hangs around the Smith & Wesson Forum.

 

[JohnHL]

You're welcome.

There's certainly more to these pistols than meets the eye.

John

 

[BLUEDOT37]

This question has come up before and the answer to it and a lot of significant information regarding the development of the S&W 40 caliber pistols can be found directly above this post in the Notable Thread Index, specifically:

4006's - information/ history/ tidbits??

That was a fun read that I had forgotten about until I saw it again.

I see you were looking for Mr Nash. Did you find him?

What exactly did he do at S&W?

.

 

[JohnHL]

I see you were looking for Mr Nash. Did you find him?

No, I never did.

What exactly did he do at S&W?

I don't know, but I think it might have something to do with the "Experimental Shop".

You see, Bluedot, I have acquired some slides and parts that Mr. Nash posted about during his employment at S&W, but I have been unable to connect with anyone who was involved with the development of S&W semi-auto pistols in the late 1980s.

This is puzzling to me as I was in my thirties during the '80s and I recall it quite clearly.

John?

 

[Denver Dick]

. . .

As to the Hogue grip, I know you aren't dumb -- so apologies in advance if this sounds like I am suggesting that you are. But I say look CLOSE and ensure that it is indeed the S&W logo that you see. I have been fooled many times myself. The stylized "H" in the bloated Hogue black rubber grip does sometimes trick the eyes.

. . .

Well, Stevens, you're wrong! I am dumb!

I was driving by my LGS today and I stopped by to take a look at the 4003 I'll be picking up on February 1st. I wanted to check out the hammer. Sure enough, it is exactly as described by JohnHL. It's actually pretty cool looking. While handling it again, I took a quick look at the grip and said to myself, yep, S&W logo. Then I started moving it around in the light while looking very close and said out loud, "What a goofball!" It is a Hogue grip with a Hogue logo.

 

[Sevens]

Well I ain't saying you're dumb, but you can call me "Sevens", like the number. Well, two of 'em.

Yeah, that Hogue logo is black on black and tricky on the eyes.