Any doubt for the Golden Saber?
- Thread starter rwsmith
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About 10 yrs ago I went to a Vet's office to identify a bullet retrieved from a Rott. MSP trooper went to a boat landing to get a family off the water since there was a forest fire headed toward them. The family Rott came out from under the camper and barked ( aggressive??? ). Trooper shot the dog in the neck, Golden Saber 40 SW 180 gr out of Sig 229, from ~ 20 feet, bullet penetrated a light 1/8" nylon, and stop on the far side. Dog went to the Vet, small incision, remove bullet, ABX, and fortunately the dog was fine. I examined the bullet, 1 petal was moved a 1/16- 1/32" to left. You could have move the petal and reloaded it. I reported it to friends at MSP and gave them the bullet. After that I tried some GS 40's in water jugs and got next to no upset. Did not try any other caliber since I shoot Winchester ranger in the 40's, 45, & 380, and CCI gold dot in 38 spl & 357, and 44 special. Was it just a fluke? bad run of cartridges, I notified who I did and went on. I have not shot any GS since that time. Be Safe,
Not clear on the description of what was penetrated (a light what? far side of what?), but GS is more of a late-opening design, similar to Winchester's BT/SXT.
TomkinsSP
Member
Any doubt for the Golden Sabre?
Ok, I will bite.
I doubt the Golden Sabre (or any other hollow point) will open at low velocities consistent with short barrel handguns. So it's solid lead wadcutters, SWC for me. (Maybe LSWC-HP in a three or four inch barrel.)
Ok, I will bite.
I doubt the Golden Sabre (or any other hollow point) will open at low velocities consistent with short barrel handguns. So it's solid lead wadcutters, SWC for me. (Maybe LSWC-HP in a three or four inch barrel.)
TomkinsSP
Member
I have become friends with a man who retired as Sheriff for the county I live in. Back in the day he often worked half the county (as in two on duty LEOs for the entire unincorporated county). A very different kind of Law Enforcement than I personally experienced.
His duty rig is/was this gorgeous silver-grey and black leaf embossed leather belt with matching handcuff cases (2) flashlight and baton rings (2) and dual magazine holders (2). His carry is/was a 5 inch Government model, in a matching Twopersons. He carried four additional magazines and a AMT .45 backup all loaded with .451 hardball.
Takes a special kind of person to be 'the Law' when you know you are going in alone.
His duty rig is/was this gorgeous silver-grey and black leaf embossed leather belt with matching handcuff cases (2) flashlight and baton rings (2) and dual magazine holders (2). His carry is/was a 5 inch Government model, in a matching Twopersons. He carried four additional magazines and a AMT .45 backup all loaded with .451 hardball.
Takes a special kind of person to be 'the Law' when you know you are going in alone.
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mike campbell
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Golden Saber, Critical Defense, Gold Dot ... all work as claimed.
If you think modern hollowpoints won't expand at short-barrel velocities. welcome to the 21st century....
If you think modern hollowpoints won't expand at short-barrel velocities. welcome to the 21st century....
^^^^^I believe any of those would ruin the day of the one on the receiving end.
Shifting the discussion to short barrel velocities, a late-opener like GS would take considerable re-design to reliably open.
An earlier opening design like Hydra Shok or Gold Dot, would probably be a better bet for short barrel expansion.
For the dog shooting, it sounds like the slug pierced a nylon strap (dog collar) that filled the cavity and suppressed expansion (and bled off a lot of velocity) and popped out the other side of the neck (a short trip through hydraulic media)--hard to say from original text. If that was the scenario, it was a severe challenge to the GS's likelihood of expanding, even from a service pistol barrel.
. Sorry if I was imprecise. The collar was 1/8 " thick, the bullet traveled from rt to lt, though the front of the dogs neck. The bullet was found on the left side of the dogs neck just under the skin. Mild soft tissue damage only. One petal of the jacket was pushed approximately 1/16", essentially no deformation. I was not testing anything, just relating a fact with regard to GB 40 SW 180gr from Sign 229. I do not know what current load specifics are ( vel ), or jacket composition, or design. Just an imprecise real world incident. Be. Safe,
Shove a 125gr Saber, into a snub nose 38 special and it works GREAT!
I'm a believer.
I'm a believer.
Frank46
US Veteran
Used to carry and shoot with the GS in 38 special with my model 36. Then for some reason it became hard to find where I live. Read up on the Speer Gold dot short barreled 38 special and bought 5-50 round boxes from SGammo. Its all I use now. Used to buy the 20 round boxes of Win 200 grain 44 special for my 3 44 special revolvers. Then that became unobtanium and started reloading all that Win 44 special brass. Frank
OP
My whole experiment......
I wanted to do penetration testing on short, carry guns, so I shot these out of a Kel Tec P11 with a 2" barrel. "Consistently" is probably the key to your argument." Nothing is a sure thing. My 158 gr 9mm SWCHP that I shot at 927 fps (clocked in a series by me and I REALLY consistent velocities. Weighed every charge I put in bullet. That's another story on another thread. Anyway, the hollow point on that bullet expanded a little, but less than the .355" dia. of the bullet. I was hoping for something a little better than THAT. Even though I like to experiment and try ideas, the Golden Saber performed perfectly and my homemade SD bullets were a dud.
Which is why no matter what I find out in my experiments, I'm sticking with the tried and true in my SD guns.
Just for grins I'll tell another story. Before this, I tried using Zero Bullets 165 grain heavy plated round nose, which I modified by flattening the nose and drilling a hollow point. They shot very well and were promising, but they were so hard they didn't expand, except for ONE that got almost .5" That to me is NOT consistent performance.
I wanted to do penetration testing on short, carry guns, so I shot these out of a Kel Tec P11 with a 2" barrel. "Consistently" is probably the key to your argument." Nothing is a sure thing. My 158 gr 9mm SWCHP that I shot at 927 fps (clocked in a series by me and I REALLY consistent velocities. Weighed every charge I put in bullet. That's another story on another thread. Anyway, the hollow point on that bullet expanded a little, but less than the .355" dia. of the bullet. I was hoping for something a little better than THAT. Even though I like to experiment and try ideas, the Golden Saber performed perfectly and my homemade SD bullets were a dud.
Which is why no matter what I find out in my experiments, I'm sticking with the tried and true in my SD guns.
Just for grins I'll tell another story. Before this, I tried using Zero Bullets 165 grain heavy plated round nose, which I modified by flattening the nose and drilling a hollow point. They shot very well and were promising, but they were so hard they didn't expand, except for ONE that got almost .5" That to me is NOT consistent performance.
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Texas Star
US Veteran
well, I now know not to shoot a big dog through a thick collar.
I guess the bullet did stop the advance of the Rottweiler, if I
savvy the OP's abb. well.
I worry about loose dogs. And I was guarding a home one night when two big Rottweilers glided past where I was sitting in my car in the driveway.It was cool and my window was mostly rolled up and I didn't move, so I don't think they saw or scented me.
My gun was a S&W M-66-3 with four-inch barrel, loaded with Federal's 158 grain JHP .357 Hydra-Shok ammo. I selected it partly because I thought it might deal well with big dogs. Has anyone here used that load on any? Federal's PR man said it works well on deer, if you must hunt deer with a .357 revolver. My idea of a deer gun is my .270 riflle...
OP: why call yourself Viper MD? Do you treat a lot of snakes?
I guess the bullet did stop the advance of the Rottweiler, if I
savvy the OP's abb. well.
I worry about loose dogs. And I was guarding a home one night when two big Rottweilers glided past where I was sitting in my car in the driveway.It was cool and my window was mostly rolled up and I didn't move, so I don't think they saw or scented me.
My gun was a S&W M-66-3 with four-inch barrel, loaded with Federal's 158 grain JHP .357 Hydra-Shok ammo. I selected it partly because I thought it might deal well with big dogs. Has anyone here used that load on any? Federal's PR man said it works well on deer, if you must hunt deer with a .357 revolver. My idea of a deer gun is my .270 riflle...
OP: why call yourself Viper MD? Do you treat a lot of snakes?
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Texas Star
US Veteran
Ed-
Why are you a believer? Have you shot a significant number of large animals or men with that combo? Are you privy to a series of autopsies involving that gun and load?
What we need here is experience or recorded actual shooting data. It's very scarce on message boards.
I'm not trying to insult you. Just want to know if you really KNOW from experience.
Have you at least shot a few big coyotes with a .38 snub and that ammo?
Texas Star
US Veteran
Golden Saber, Critical Defense, Gold Dot ... all work as claimed.
If you think modern hollowpoints won't expand at short-barrel velocities. welcome to the 21st century....
Mike-
What did you use for a target medium? At what range?
An editor who has shot many animals says that bullets perform on animals a lot like they perform in water. He's killed alligators with a 2.5 inch barreled .357 and 125 grain Rem. bullets, but I think they were full velocity rounds, not Golden Saber.
one eye joe
US Veteran
WOW---THAT'S VERY DISAPPOINTING PERFORMANCE. I USED TO LOAD GS IN MY EDC COLT 1911, MOSTLY BECAUSE OF ITS FEED RAMP FRIENDLY OGIVE. FORTUNATELY--BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE-- I NEVER HAD TO USE IT, TO SAVE MY BACON......
AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAME, I EDC REVOLVERS. LIKE YOU, I LIKE THE SPEER GOLD DOT, IN .38SPL+P. IT HAS AN EXCELLENT TRACK RECORD IN THE FIELD, AND ITS THE DUTY AMMO, ISSUED TO NYPD OFFICERS, WHO CARRY REVOLVERS.........
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OP
OP
I used Speer exclusively.....
For years, then it got hard to find. Then you couldn't find it at all. I looked up distributors in my area and found one and took a ride there one day. If I remember they a "Speer Dealer" sticker on their window. I walked in and asked the guy if he had any Speer components and he said, "We don't have any ammunition here." I looked around, and he didn't. Thanks for a trip for nothing.
For years, then it got hard to find. Then you couldn't find it at all. I looked up distributors in my area and found one and took a ride there one day. If I remember they a "Speer Dealer" sticker on their window. I walked in and asked the guy if he had any Speer components and he said, "We don't have any ammunition here." I looked around, and he didn't. Thanks for a trip for nothing.
OP
There are tons of tests out there...
Videos, magazines wood boards, you name it. Most of the time it's into gel, but people like me aren't set up for that and use what we can get. But anyway, a vast majority of tests show that the major brands of ammo, Remington, Federal, Hornady, Speer, Winchester, all have highly consistent defensive ammo. You can see for yourself, at least under test conditions that they perform well.
So I don't go out and shoot animals to test my ammo, so I think that a standard test is about as good as I'm going to get. Well, the internet has made a big difference. You can see all kinds of ammo tested by different people. That's much better than taking the manufacturers word for it..
Videos, magazines wood boards, you name it. Most of the time it's into gel, but people like me aren't set up for that and use what we can get. But anyway, a vast majority of tests show that the major brands of ammo, Remington, Federal, Hornady, Speer, Winchester, all have highly consistent defensive ammo. You can see for yourself, at least under test conditions that they perform well.
So I don't go out and shoot animals to test my ammo, so I think that a standard test is about as good as I'm going to get. Well, the internet has made a big difference. You can see all kinds of ammo tested by different people. That's much better than taking the manufacturers word for it..
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