So Called K-Frame Flaw 125 gr 357 Magnum

[mike campbell]

Just saw a 586 with a cracked cone this winter. Had ~ 6K rounds thru it...mild 38's to full 357's. S&W happily replaced the barrel for ~ $350.

Guns break. If you're really fortunate, you get to shoot enough to wear one out.

Brake pads and rotors can wear out in 20-30K miles and cost several hundred $$$ to replace. If it bothered me, I suppose I could just not drive....it's no where near as much fun as shooting.

 

[stansdds]

My last brake pads lasted 60,000 miles and the rotors were not warped, scored, or worn when the pads were replaced. I have no idea how many rounds my Model 19 has seen, I bought it as a well used and possibly former LEO firearm. Sadly, I have not kept records on how many rounds I've put through it either, but my use of lightweight bullets was kept to a minimum.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

I'm old enough to remember when just about every LEO carried a revolver, usually either a .38 Special or .357 Magnum, rather than a semiautomatic pistol. I also remember during said "golden days" of the revolver, the premier "fight stopping" ammo was the 125 gr. JHP bullet in .357 Magnum. I've seen the terminal effects of said round on a few people who were on the receiving end of it, and it was most impressive. I recall reading a story - maybe out of Georgia - of a trooper who was in a gunfight with a very obese man. The victim absorbed multiple hits from the 125 gr. JHP round without ill effects, and it was later determined that his "extra padding" served as his own body armor. I also remember more than a few LEOs who were required to load .38 Special ammo in their revolvers, but kept a handful or two of the 125 gr. JHP ammo in their pockets just-in-case.

Regards,

Dave

 

[mike campbell]

Each one of my guns is worth more today than the first vehicles I spent $500,000 on.

 

[RGVshooter]

... hi everybody. Why do most folks refer to these anomalies as
cracks. These are actually FLAME CUTS caused by a very hot flame under extreme pressure {Think oxyacetylene torch, under very, very high pressure}. It will begin wherever gas leakage is
most likely, say at the forcing cone. {The top strap will suffer too}.
Once these hot gasses can find a way out, the leak will only grow and get worse. The 'K' frame is most at fault because of the thinner forcing cone at the six-o-clock location.
The lighter the projectile. the hotter the flame is behind the projectile. A heavier projectile uses up more of the flame prior to reaching the cylinder gap.
-Don

No... The crack has nothing to do with hot gases. On those older K frame 357 magnums, S&W used the same frame & barrel as the 38 specials. In order for the longer 357 cylinder to fit, a flat was milled under the barrel to allow clearance for the cylinder. That caused a natural weakness in the forcing cone and those revolvers are prone to cracking. You can see the crack in the photo is right where the bottom of the forcing cone has been milled flat to allow the cylinder to fit in the smaller frame.

This is why S&W then produced the 686/585 series revolvers.

 

[Filo McShoe]

^^^what he said^^^
problem is in speed stuff like the 125 gr get and impact on the thin area of the forcing cone at 6 o'clock not gas
google: "k frame forcing cone crack" plenty of photos

 

[Coaltminer]

Bull

If you live long enough to
Outlive your gun
I'll
Buy it. Ps, the 19's lasted longer than the 66's.. carbon steel. Beat to death post. New classic 19 will be my next gun. 66 be damned!

 

[HamHands]

As I understand the issue, the 125gr bullets require more powder than heavier bullets ... generating more hear and flame at the barrel/cylinder gap, which allows the flame to cut the top strap.

My brother likes to shoot his "K" frame with .357 mags like I love my "N" frames in .44special and .44mag... So his sole 'K' frame sees it's share of hot pills down the pipe. His has significant flame cutting into the top strap but no cracks around the forcing cone. I guess he stopped worrying about it after an old school K frame shooter showed him a couple of his "K's" with flame cutting into almost half way thru the top strap and never seemed to get any deeper. It just sort of settled/stopped and the guy just kept on rockin' them. I'd have loved to have seen those old war horses but wasn't with him that day!

 

[UncleEd]

The saga of the 125 grain .357 Magnum and its
ability to ruin a revolver reminds me of the
ill-fated .357 Remington Maximum with its
light bullets introduced in Ruger Blackhawks.

The light bullets combined with pressures in
excess of 40,000 pounds immediately started
cutting top straps.

That was a real "ooops" of unintended consequences.

 

[WR Moore]

In addition to the comments by Alk8944, back when the K frame was designed and for decades thereafter, the vast majority of people simply didn't shoot much. It wouldn't be unusual to see a K frame carried for 20 years by an LEO to have maybe 2500 rounds through it. Most of which might well have been wadcutters. OK, the steels got better (and heat treated) since 1899, but the design issues of the original still exist.

Two other issues: the first is that when the +P ammo was being developed (and some stuff way beyond +P) it was common for the ammo companies to require a hold harmless agreement from the customer. The company stated up front that the use of the ammo would cause accelerated wear and possible breakage which might result in injuries and/or death and the customer assumed all liability for same. It's kind of like your car, if you continually run the engine at the red line, it's not going to last as long as it would driven more responsibly.

The second item is the use of full power duty ammo for all training and practice. This was part of the fallout from the Newhall incident and some similar tragedies.

 

[Doug.38PR]

One question that i've never seen asked: How long did Bill Jordan's M19 last with all the .357 magnum rounds he put through it (and we know he shot a lot through his gun). Was it still running good by the time he finished his career or even until his death? Did he switch to 125 gr magnums after they were developed?

 

[gmborkovic]

I would bet Bill Jordan really did not give much concern to flame cutting or eroded cones. He had a problem with a 19, he got a few more from Mr. Wesson. And sent the old one back in. Bill had a direct line right to the top.
Was not Bill the greatest advertisement for the 19?

 

[sniper]

O.P., GREAT question!
This is an excellent and informative thread about a subject that perhaps has been beaten to death, but is nonetheless useful for many of us who know less than a lot of guys, and have read something about the problem, and wish to learn more! Thanx!

 

[max503]

You have to understand that 110 and 125 grain jacketed .357 magnum factory ammunition did not exist when the Model 19 was originally designed, and very little jacketed 158 grain ammunition. As long as lead bullet ammunition was used there were no reports I have ever heard of barrel failure!

Thanks. I'm going to definitely stay with cast bullets only in my beloved 19.

 

[WR Moore]

Actually, the question about how Bill Jordan's model 19 lasted was answered long ago. In those days, most qualification/training was done with wadcutter .38s. Some departments might use RNL .38s, but the vast majority of the shooting was with .38s. And, as noted earlier those would all have been lead bullets.

.357s might have been used to check sighting and carried (and would probably been lead or one of the very few 158 gr jacketed), but hundreds of rounds of full power ammo were almost unheard of. I don't recall exactly when the 125 gr JHP .357s were developed, but my best memories suggest it would have been very early 1970's by the major manufacturers. (Super Vel might have been before this, but they were breaking new ground.) I'm pretty sure Mr. Jordan was retired by then.

Back in the 1980's I was issued an L frame and every round we fired was full house Federal 125 gr JHP Magnum. We shot a lot. As a result, we had a steady stream of firearms going back to the factory to get returned to acceptable tolerances. That said, we didn't split any forcing cones, but we had a lot of examples of advanced wear.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Actually, the question about how Bill Jordan's model 19 lasted was answered long ago. In those days, most qualification/training was done with wadcutter .38s. Some departments might use RNL .38s, but the vast majority of the shooting was with .38s. And, as noted earlier those would all have been lead bullets.

.357s might have been used to check sighting and carried (and would probably been lead or one of the very few 158 gr jacketed), but hundreds of rounds of full power ammo were almost unheard of. I don't recall exactly when the 125 gr JHP .357s were developed, but my best memories suggest it would have been very early 1970's by the major manufacturers. (Super Vel might have been before this, but they were breaking new ground.) I'm pretty sure Mr. Jordan was retired by then.

Back in the 1980's I was issued an L frame and every round we fired was full house Federal 125 gr JHP Magnum. We shot a lot. As a result, we had a steady stream of firearms going back to the factory to get returned to acceptable tolerances. That said, we didn't split any forcing cones, but we had a lot of examples of advanced wear.

According to Wikipedia, Jordan retired in 1971 from the Border Patrol. So he was right there in the early 70s.
But he still had another 26 years of life on this earth which I'm sure included shooting with his beloved M19. He was always one to advance improved ideas such as his promoting the development of the M19 and the M58 and .41 Magnum. So I wouldn't be surprised that he at least looked into the 125 grain when their track record became known in the 70s.

Keep in mind also, he wasn't just and average Joe that carried a gun and badge and qualified, he was a professional that took practical shooting and training very seriously.

 

[UncleEd]

Jordan in his book No Second Place Winner
mentions that in his youthful days, not knowing
any better, he burned up an awful lot of
full power and wadcutter ammo.

But as his book points out, he turned to wax
bullets for practice and exhibitions.

He devotes an entire chapter to producing wax
bullets.

Bip, bip, bip, he'd demolish an Necco wafer at eight
feet following a fast drawer.

 

[Texas Star]

One question that i've never seen asked: How long did Bill Jordan's M19 last with all the .357 magnum rounds he put through it (and we know he shot a lot through his gun). Was it still running good by the time he finished his career or even until his death? Did he switch to 125 gr magnums after they were developed?

Bill told me personally that he thought the M-19 should fire only about 10-15% of the time with Magnum loads. And those were traditional 158 grain rounds.

I believe he still owned his M-19 that was presented to him in 1955. It may be the first production Combat Magnum, certainly a very early one. This doesn't mean he didn't have others. But I don't think he went in for a lot of .357 shooting in K-frame guns.

I think he retired from the Border Patrol before they had to qualify frequently with full power duty ammo.

Actually, the last time I saw him, he was carrying a Model 59 9mm auto. Said he liked it and had faith in it. We were in G.W. Stone's knife shop in Richardson, TX and Bill had driven over from Shreveport and stopped by to tell G.W. how much he liked his custom knives, which had performed splendidly on Bill's recent safari. I was there interviewing Stone for the profile of him that I published in, Blade magazine. We all knew one another from prior encounters.

What most don't know is that Bill had a very early Airweight Chief Spcl. with the light alloy cylinder that was dropped in favor of a steel one after the aluminum cylinders began cracking. You'll recall that the USAF destroyed almost all of the similar Aircrewman revolvers. I asked if it was wise to carry such a gun, but Bill said he didn't worry. I suspect he fired that gun seldom. He carried it mainly while jogging.

He did a lot of practice shooting with wax bullets, which he fired in his public demos. One gun he used for that was an old M&P .38 that had belonged to an ancestor. He had it fitted with a heavier barrel. The action was very smooth indeed. But that was true of all his guns that I handled.

Bill was an incredibly fast and accurate shooter. Most can't believe that a gun can be so deadly in the right hands until they see it!

He had a droll wit and I miss him

 

[Texas Star]

If you live long enough to
Outlive your gun
I'll
Buy it. Ps, the 19's lasted longer than the 66's.. carbon steel. Beat to death post. New classic 19 will be my next gun. 66 be damned!

Please let us know why you feel the M-66 is less durable.

According to an article in, Shooting Times by I believe Dick Metcalf, the forcing cone and barrel of the stainless guns is LESS worn by high pressure .357 ammo. The steel just wears better under heat and pressure than do blue or nickel guns.

Probably the first use of stainless steel in firearms was Winchester building at least some .220 Swift M-70's with stainless barrels, to better endure the highly erosive cartridge.

My M-66-3 is probably my favorite revolver ever, and has given no trouble at all. I bought it new in 1990 and carried it almost daily for 21 years. It still looks almost new, thanks to my using high quality lined holsters and taking care of it. I have polished out a few minor scuff marks, blending the polishing in with the original finish.

I've owned about six blued M-19's and liked them, but prefer the maintenance advantages of stainless steel.

 

[UncleEd]

Texas Star,

I recall an article Bill Jordan wrote in which
he said a fire destroyed his guns, or at least
those at his home or trailer.

He then said he'd need a new .22 rifle, a shotgun,
a centerfire hunting rifle and for good measure
probably another Model 19. This is what I remember
from memory.

He joked in another article that if you didn't
handle matters with your six shooter, it was time
to fill the air with 9 mm from a hi cap auto
as you retreated to a place where you
could practice more.