The seductive Model 39s as collectors' subculture.

[model3sw]

What are they?

What are the differences below? One difference really ain't that big.

I've got more, later.

Now.Mustl. Sleep.

On 2732, pull the stocks, see if there are markings under the stocks. I saw that one on GB last month, had a suspicion it may have been a warranty re-frame at one time from the long duck tail and extended safety lever (also the straw colored slide stop). Curious to know details.

 

[DCW]

Two 39s

Model 39, S/N 6180

Acquired a couple of years ago from an Upstate N.Y. estate sale, this is a sweet Model 39 example. Immediate past, late owner's original invoice showed No. 6180 as costing $75.

Model 39, S/N 7495

This isn't this collector's first Model 39 rescue and doubtful is it being his last. As can be seen in the above, the bluing was somehow partially stripped from the slide. How and why is unknown inasmuch as the "usual suspects" don't seem to fit the damage.

Despite Ol' DC's age, he still retains sufficient brain space to learn anew.

 

[Engine49guy]

Sal IIRC Model 39's in the 2800 serial range were shipping around April 1959,
The change to the longer "Tang" appears prior to them moving the slide serrations fwd,
cant quite tell from the pic but it looks like 2732 posted above appears to have the dust cover slot on the frame as well.

 

[cougar015]

Hello Mr DC Williams, It's good to hear from you, it's been awhile. Here I am once again admiring your guns. Looks like we were both bidding on the same model 39 but Florida5thcalvary won. Nice buy. I just picked up a nice pre 39 myself. It has all the classic features a pre-39 should have. Here's a few pictures from the seller. I'll post a better one once I receive the gun.
P.S. this one even comes with the original box.

 

[DCW]

Vive La Différence

Greetings to My Fellow Smith & Wesson Forum Metal-Head Members and Contributors . . .

. . . Offered are apologies for this user's delay, but between work and life's other requirements (the "Honey Do" jar, especially) I'm cataloging my Pre- and Model 39 collection. After the completion of that, I'll be doing my 39-2s.

With respect to discerning differences between the two pictured pistols: On the bottom left is Smith & Wesson Pre-39 No. 2623, which has been elsewhere posted in this forum in times past and was acquired from Mr. Roger Bain (rogerbain.com) more moons ago than I care to recall at this time. It included the proper box as well as the proper materials within.

Funny thing about it upon receipt: I looked at the sole accompanying 8-round magazine and wondered what and where acquired was that magazine and/or it's "weird" stamped-steel follower, thinking at the time the "skeleton" follower was "the first" or "earliest." Somewhat angered the seller had included a blatantly incorrect otherwise essential element, yours truly very nearly threw that magazine away but, thankfully, it remains with its corresponding firearm to this day. And, as is noted elsewhere (probably many times over), this collector's brain has room to learn new things, as he did not long afterward in the above matter.

Pictured to the upper right of Pre-2623 is Smith & Wesson Model 39, Serial No. 2732.

The significance: Not wishing to bore but worthy of being clearly stated, No 2623 is a "Pre" whereas No. 2732 is not. The latter was produced just 109 units (well, numerically, anyway) after the former. Although not as obvious but worthy of a mini sidebar of sorts, this collector recently came across No. 2732 years after No. 2623.

The significance of the two's proximity to one another to this collector is his longtime desire to close the firearm production gap following No. 2623, a "Pre-," and the "first" designated Model 39.

No. 2732 pretty well characterizes the intended, updated look of the Model 39 and departs from S&W's known tendency to as fully as possible utilize (safe) "leftover" parts of a model's previous manufacturing run - in this case, the "Pre-39" - at various times following the introduction of a "new" run, which in this case was Smith & Wesson finally providing a model number, "39," to its 9mm pistol and starting a new production run of that Model 39.

In Model 39, SN 2732's case the visual, external aspects included: A longer tang (spur) at the top of an updated backstrap; a longer safety lever and a corresponding cutout of the left-side grip to allow for that safety lever's increased operational arc and, (among still other, often very subtle changes) found atop the slide is a new forward-sight profile. A not-so-subtle but, interestingly, often overlooked is the new frame.

Posted earlier this evening in this thread were a couple of other four-digit 39s also in this collector's possession.

Speaking to an earlier assertion made of S&W's tendency of striving to at some point in time to entirely use parts, no matter whether intended for use in earlier versions, a look at S&W Model 39, SN 6180, will show its use of the smaller safety lever originally intended for use in what now is called "The Pre-39." Not only was the smaller lever employed in SN 6180 but so, too, used is the corresponding "straight top" left-side grip.

The differences in pistols one can sometimes find within a Model's run is among those things that make collecting enjoyable and, sometimes, quite profitable.

Now, back to posting more!

Later.

 

[DCW]

Yes, Cougar, I saw you in on the earlier action.

Sadly, I suppose, we sometimes inevitably will step on each other's toes . . . and I'd rather not. Indeed, have yielded a few when I've seen fellow members bid ahead of me.

This one, although not a Pre- was gonna be mine. Paid a nice chunk for it, too. And I'd do it again.

I'm glad you went on to even better numbers, scoring that nice Pre-, I see.

Nice to hear from you, Cougar. It's been awhile, huh?

"Work, work, work, work, work." The Guv, Blazing Saddles.

DC

 

[NDFRC]

Hi,
Looking for some info on why a m39 would have a barrel marked 9x21. I assume this means it was made for the European market? Or another reason perhaps? Thanks

 

[gmborkovic]

I have a very late 39-2 with German proofs, marked on breech,
9mm para.

 

[Sevens]

I believe the 9x21 was intended specifically for the Italian market. The modern and extremely rare 952-3 has a 9x21 barrel and is so marked.

That particular seller (where I will guess you saw the 9x21 Model 39) has a handful of 39's!

 

[NDFRC]

Thanks, does the 9x21 add to or distract from collectibility?

 

[model3sw]

Hello Mr DC Williams, It's good to hear from you, it's been awhile. Here I am once again admiring your guns. Looks like we were both bidding on the same model 39 but Florida5thcalvary won. Nice buy. I just picked up a nice pre 39 myself. It has all the classic features a pre-39 should have. Here's a few pictures from the seller. I'll post a better one once I receive the gun.
P.S. this one even comes with the original box.

We are all Gentlemen so I suggest we all follow the rules of the Marquess of Queensberry with an addition that NO blood be drawn during bidding.

Seriously, no one would intentionally want to injure another member but at the end of the day it's money that talks and everything else walks.

There's enough for everyone.

 

[model3sw]

Any model that strays from the standard production is one of the "subculture" guns. I like the odd, different and lower production models.

 

[cougar015]

We are all Gentlemen so I suggest we all follow the rules of the Marquess of Queensberry with an addition that NO blood be drawn during bidding.

Seriously, no one would intentionally want to injure another member but at the end of the day it's money that talks and everything else walks.

There's enough for everyone.

Sal,
DCW and I go way back as we are bonded by our mutual love for the model 39. I would relinquish any claim to a gun if he was bidding on it as I would for you. This is how respect works.

 

[model3sw]

Sal,
DCW and I go way back as we are bonded by our mutual love for the model 39. I would relinquish any claim to a gun if he was bidding on it as I would for you. This is how respect works.

I agree, completely, however an auction is an auction. I'm simply stating that if someone outbids me, they deserve it. If it was a shill trying to boost me, then I would not like that.

Just because I put an early bid in on something (which I rarely do) it's to mark my interest in it. If I do place and early tracer bid, it is only to prevent anyone else from getting angry if I win it however, it does not mean I have an exclusive on that auction where all other members should back off. If someone else bids after me, I have no hard feelings what so ever. It happens.

I was on that same gun SN 2732 Model 39, but I surmised it could perhaps be a re-frame (which it may or may not be) because of the long duck tail on the frame, the much newer slide with the long safety release and to a lesser degree the straw colored slide stop. I found it to be interesting, to a certain value (to me) with my knowledge of that specific M39, at that time. It was obviously worth a higher value to someone else for whatever his reasons were (which is none of my business).

We spoke, I explained I was all in at $1000. This communication between 2 of more interested members is the respect I think you're describing.

 

[model3sw]

Model 39, S/N 6180

Acquired a couple of years ago from an Upstate N.Y. estate sale, this is a sweet Model 39 example. Immediate past, late owner's original invoice showed No. 6180 as costing $75.

Model 39, S/N 7495

This isn't this collector's first Model 39 rescue and doubtful is it being his last. As can be seen in the above, the bluing was somehow partially stripped from the slide. How and why is unknown inasmuch as the "usual suspects" don't seem to fit the damage.

Despite Ol' DC's age, he still retains sufficient brain space to learn anew.

I have a spare box SN: 7195. Close, but no "Cohiba". Although, if you have a white lacquer pencil you're in like Flynn.

 

[NDFRC]

Good God, I almost had a stroke when I saw your spare box for 7195!! I thought that was my 7175 box! How close is that?! Man! Are you sure that xx9x isn’t a 7?!

 

[DCW]

Caveat Emptor

Thanks, does the 9x21 add to or distract from collectibility?"(and etc., before and after)

I've pondered the very same since first seeing that particular firearm weeks ago. Notice it's had no takers in that period of time and, since it went off the board on 29 Aug., hasn't re-listed.

Here's my concerns with the firearm:
NO BOX - A really rich price for a no-box gun. Others offered of same construct in the last couple of weeks saw high-price sales @ around the same price BUT . . .
FINISH - it's really, really good. You know, perhaps such wouldn't be unusual had the lister's other Model 39s didn't also look pristine or close to such, even though they, too, have no box to offer. It's been my experience that rare is the next-to-pristine or better gun finish when the manufacturer's original box is unavailable. Still, the finish, while decent looking, just lacks the, uh, "class" of a first-rate S&W bluing - even should that bluing be an original, 50-or-60 year-old bluing. It is this collector's opinion that offered are refinished guns, whether done 10 years ago or 10 weeks ago. And THAT definitely diminshes a value.
ISRAELI - The proofs are Israeli. There's no reason to think the worse of something for being Isreali. But there are a HUGE number of Isreali guns suddenly making their way to the US market. I'm curious as to why, naturally, but I'm just as interested in what else may be on the near horizon coming in from that land. Just in the last five days Robertson Trading, which has been around for awhile and has a decent reputation in Ol' DC's eyes, listed an "Israeli" Model 39 at auction with (surprise!!) a "Duracoat refinish." "Something is happening here; what it is ain't exactly clear . . ." (with all due respect to Stephen Stills)
CALIBER - My copy of The Blue Book Ammo Encyclopaedia says the 9x21 cartridge (an Israeli design) is "obsolete." Just two weeks ago I checked to see if any 9x21 was available on the market and yes, yes it is. Only the place which said it had eight boxes didn't have even one on hand and wondered aloud as to how the 9x21 was even on their Website in the first place. "It isn't Parabellum, right?" Ol' DC fielded while speaking over his handheld portable radio. Such doesn't exactly portend plentiful 9x21 ammunition stocks to me.
ALL OF THE ABOVE isn't to say this collector wouldn't buy the firearm, but I'm only willing to do so at roughly the present price if allayed are my concerns and fears. OTHERWISE, the price will have to come down somewhere around $600 to $1k to offset those fears sufficiently to, well, allay those fears.

Later.

 

[NDFRC]

Interesting indeed, I to noticed around 5 steel frames come up for sale in the past month or 2 and only seen maybe 2 in the past 2-3 yrs, like a bunch of the 937some just fell out of the sky given and given the variables of each I want to say they went for 2k, 2600, 1600, 1400(I almost went for it) then the one you mention at 1999. Thanks for the insight and I totally agree. Want one, w/box, one day.

 

[mbliss57]

I posted this in another thread but it really fits best here.
Pre Model 39 SN 2219. Its' not a great photo as I took with cell phone in bad light.

 

[DCW]

Cell phone image or no: "Wow!"

Later.