How much are we knocking a FACTORY refinished antique revolver?

mrcvs

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How much...these days?

The recent thread with regards to a Model 320 Revolving Rifle that was refinished in amateur fashion makes me ask this.

I am asking about a factory refinished Smith & Wesson, the one with an asterisk and a date code.

Some will entertain owning a nonprofessionally refinished firearm, "just to have" a certain representative model, if they don't already have one. To me, this is troublesome. On the other hand, a "purist" would likely not be interested in even a factory refinished gun. But, how does one collect Schofields, for example. My understanding is that all. U.S.-marked specimens had been refurbished before the advent of the 20th Century.

I had heard that the general rule of thumb is that a factory refinished gun is worth 85% of that in like condition but not factory refinished. I would guess that this applies to firearms in >40 or 50% condition. Below that, I wouldn't think it would matter.

Does this "conventional wisdom" still hold water, or is it now being disregarded? For example, I know somewhat recently of two nearly identical Triple Locks coming up at auction, the first offered was not refinished, the second one in the auction contained the asterisk. The second brought more than the first! My guess is that a bidder on the first lot was outbid, and bid on the second lot hoping to get it for less, and being unsuccessful at that, bid high enough to get it, or make it painful enough for the competing bidder to snag that particular Triple Lock.

The aforementioned is meant to be in reference to models such as the No 2 Army, American Model, NM No 3, etc., etc.

And, as discussed previously, there are those such as Charles Duffy, who were so skilled at what they did, that it's nearly impossible to differentiate between their expert refinish and factory original.

Then, of course, the asterisk does not always signify a refinish, but just a return to the factory for an undocumented number of reasons, one of which, of course, would be to refinish.
 
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I think your est of 85% is probably about right, but in my estimation it might depend on the scarcity of the actual model in question. A .32 Regulation Police Target may be worth 90%+ due to the relative scarcity of them.

I was amazed at the value quoted on a Number 1, 1st Issue, 3rd type I acquired that in my opinion probably falls in antique fine, but has enough bumps and bruises and chips to rate about 50%, but the blue and silver plate are both about 70% remaining. Considering they only made 1870 of them raises the value considerably.
 
I dont believe they are knocks. Just comments on personal preferences.
Are there any rules on values? I dont know. I just like factory original guns.
Some I have are queens and some well loved shooters. I look at them all.
Depends on my mood at the time.
 
One thing for sure I have discovered with this whole collecting thing is 1 condition is everything to a true collector and 2 condition is in the eyes of the beholder at that particular moment for that particular gun .That said collectors being a frugal bunch in general discount a factory refinish a lot more when buying a gun than when selling the same gun. Just kiddin just kiddin I don't want to get kicked out .
 
I've seen the condition appraisal that Supica and Nahas state in SCSW4th used fairly often: A factory refinish may raise the condition to Very Good. I believe many who entertain collecting anything but pristine guns would include a restoration by professionals like Ford's, APWCogan or Turnbull as roughly equivalent.
 
Restored guns have always been something that gets lots of controversy. But it's not as simple as saying they're all bad. A factory restored gun that is a nicely done restoration and documented can often bring more than any other restoration, and more than some originals in less than great condition.
At what point a gun is better off restored depends on several things to me. First being if it was improperly restored already. I wont hesitate to strip and restore a gun that's had a crappy restoration already. It's just an insult to a fine gun when someone screws up the restoration, so having it properly finished is always better.
And a gun that's been abused, or seen a hard life is better off restored for me. At some point I see a gun is just too far gone to want to keep it original. When the original finish is too bad, I'd rather restore it.
But I own guns that have almost no finish, that show they've been well loved and not abused. I'd never dream of restoring those guns because they aren't candidates based simply on lack of finish. Since the metal shows signs of decades of use, but not abuse, I prefer to maintain that well earned look myself.
 
Do the terms restored and refinished mean the same thing?
I have seen Ford refinished guns and Turnbulls restorations.
Not impressed. Would not buy one. Just my personal opinion. Dont take offense. There are to many nice, original guns out there for sale.
 
Threads like this usually turn into an accumulation of expressions of individual preference, which is happening here too.

That's because the market is simply too small for a true market value to emerge. And since so many transactions are private one-on-one affairs, the market, limited as it is, isn't very transparent either, and many factors besides the finish's originality may drive the sale price.

So with no disrespect intended to anyone, I do not place trust or importance in sources, experienced as they may be, using percentages to create the illusion of objective parameters. Those don't exist.

If something common like an M&P/Victory comes up and the question arises, a few minutes with Gunbroker's closed auctions updates me on enough current sales to hazard a ballpark guess, but for the kind of guns we're talking about here, that's not so easy. Anecdotes aren't data usable for general pronouncements.

What a gun is worth depends on what someone is willing to pay for it.

A friend of mine is just discovering that in respect to real estate. Zillow and other online tools value his house at 300,000, but after 6 months he is starting to realize that this does not do him one bit of good if there is no buyer who shares that assessment. ;)
 
One thing for sure I have discovered with this whole collecting thing is 1 condition is everything to a true collector and 2 condition is in the eyes of the beholder at that particular moment for that particular gun .That said collectors being a frugal bunch in general discount a factory refinish a lot more when buying a gun than when selling the same gun. Just kiddin just kiddin I don't want to get kicked out .

YOU MAY BE JUST KIDDING, BUT IMHO, THERE IS A KERNEL OF TRUTH IN YOUR STATEMENT......
 
"Fair" Market Value has been classically described forever as "What a willing Seller will take from a willing buyer". I'm sure that is true in any venue of selling/buying but as Absalom says our S&W collecting world is somewhat limited because their are not that many "willing Sellers" of limited, or scarce, or even 1 of a 1000, or 2000 because absolutely none of these will ever be made anymore, so although there may be many "willing buyers" there just isn't enough on the supply side to go around so the negotiations never get to first base.

In the cases where a particular model does come up for sale, no matter the venue, I personally don't think you can successfully play the re-finish, or non-matching grip numbers, or no box/docs stuff to turn it into a "steal".

Unless one is in an emergency situation where the gun "must sell", most of these "desirable's" are already in the hands of someone either "expert" or at least knowledgeable about the gun and its scarcity and they probably have an excellent idea of what fair market value means to them, and won't budge any appreciable amount.

I have nothing up for sale at this time however as a example(s) of my thought process...let's say I did want to move my Model 10 in 98%, my 1899 Army (1 of 1000 ever made) with the earliest s/n recorded on this Forum, and maybe my M1 Garand National Match IHC.

The Model 10 would probably get listed for $500, and would maybe move at $450 cause they are indeed all around in quantity and the finish is about the only thing that would be in my favor, whereas the 1899 is not a thing of deep blue beauty, but all correct with the right stamps, stocks, initials is a seldom seen survivor and I would price that one right on up there, regardless of what RIA, Julia's or other I-net "big guys" are "listing" for again because I've got the only one there is in that condition, and for sure....I'm reaching for only that collector who wants it worse than me....only the time is the factor in that one.

The Garand is another story which is probably "middle ground". It is a nice one, correct, very high condition, National Match components, and a CMP purchase years ago (in fact one of the very last US Army arsenal rebuilds before switching to M14 overhauls in 1967). So this rifle could be listed for twice what I paid CMP years ago, or even a little less and I would be happy, or it could go for Blue Book (arsenal rebuild price) or if someone wanted a National Match in 98% condition it could end up higher yet. For a purist wanting only a WWII or Korea untouched they wouldn't be interested at any price so there you have it.

A Model 10 that is very subject to pricing based on condition and an "oldie" that won't be a steal to a middle ground M1 that may or may not be haggled over before it goes on down the road.

To answer the OP question (slightly paraphrased) "does refinish at factory mean much money wise". It might.........and it might not, at least to me in my small world of collecting, accumulating, and shooting what I have always liked and admired.

So sure
 

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A FACTORY REFINISH MAY PALE IN QUALITY TO A REFINISH AT FORD'S OR A RESTORATION AT TURNBULL.....

I AM NOT A COLLECTOR, BUT I DO TAKE PRIDE IN THE APPEARANCE OF THE FIREARMS THAT I OWN AND SHOOT. I WOULD NOT ASCRIBE AN ADDITIONAL PREMIUM TO A FIREARM, BECAUSE IT WAS REFINISHED AT S&W....
 
A FACTORY REFINISH MAY PALE IN QUALITY TO A REFINISH AT FORD'S OR A RESTORATION AT TURNBULL.....

I AM NOT A COLLECTOR, BUT I DO TAKE PRIDE IN THE APPEARANCE OF THE FIREARMS THAT I OWN AND SHOOT. I WOULD NOT ASCRIBE AN ADDITIONAL PREMIUM TO A FIREARM, BECAUSE IT WAS REFINISHED AT S&W....

I agree with you Joe, but collectors are a different lot.
Many might also be turned off by aftermarket engraving,which could easily be superior to factory engraving.
Many would pay a premium for a boxed 97% gun,while knocking a 100% gun that's missing the box, which is nothing more than cardboard, meant to get the gun cheaply to a dealer.It's as if the box magically give the gun untouched virginal status,and rolls back the clock to its shipment date.
I go solely by condition. A refinished gun will never be as good as a decent original, in the same way that a repainted classic car isn't the same as one not repainted.You'll never know what it looked like before the process, and that plants a question in your head, and therefore lower value.Does it matter that much if a Chevy dealer painted a car rather than the guy down the street? Both could have started with the same mess of a car.
 
As a relatively new collector compared to some of you, I am thankful for those of you that only want non refinished Smiths in your collection. This has helped those of us that do not have the budget for what some of these bring to have a representative in our collection. Obviously all things being equal I prefer an all original over any refinish. Here are my five refinished, and one modified/refinished Smiths I enjoy having them all.
 

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... I WOULD NOT ASCRIBE AN ADDITIONAL PREMIUM TO A FIREARM, BECAUSE IT WAS REFINISHED AT S&W....

The issue was not assigning a premium to a refinish at Smith & Wesson relative to an as original condition and/or an amateur refinish. To me, an amateur refinish is of zero interest. One performed by Smith & Wesson is of interest, and the intent of this thread was to see what others would establish as a fair value relative to original, 85% or otherwise. It appears the 85% figure still is a good rule of thumb, despite some evidence, although not consistent, to the contrary.
 
The comments by cmansguns is hitting the nail on the head IMHO.
"What it is" makes all of the difference in the world. My one 1911 is a 1918 Colt. It is in excellent condition. But, and a big but it is, it has been arsenal refinished/rebuilt. That knocks some dollars right off the top, without question. It will never have the same value of a very nice original condition 1918 Colt 1911.
Scarcity is the trump card. Anyone in to collecting Pennsylvania long rifles can verify this. Over the decades I have purchased several rifles that were basket cases/rusty smokepoles with several shards of stock remaining. But, by a maker that commands high value due to workmanship and scarcity. In 'as found' condition, the 'value' may have been $1000.00, but after an 'expert reconditioning' that may have left a lot less than 50% original parts, and a beautiful piece quite representative of the original as envisioned it would have been (at a cost of several thousand dollars), you end up with a $10,000.00, perhaps considerably more, piece. Then comes the 'scruples' issue - I always sold with disclosure of a restoration, including the depth to which it went. Some people do not disclose, and there are a lot of Kentucks out there posing as original commanding astronomical prices, that only the very trained eye can detect as having been reconstituted, and the only original part may be the signed barrel or lock.
So, for very rare pieces, a refurb can be very much of an enhancer for value (assuming that it is well done). Here I am talking about items that were not mass produced, and in some cases very few examples remain. Very few (if any) S&W handguns would fall into this category, although some are quite rare and have quite a following of individuals seeking them. So, scarcity, in my opinion, is the trump card. I discount most (not all) pieces that have been refinished to at least some degree. And, of course, 'who did it' would also come in to play.
Offered as food for thought only and not argument.
Let me add that I like to collect K-22's. (Well, lets say that I always seem to have several.) I would see very little value in one that was refinished, no matter who did the job. There are just too many excellent unmolested ones out there to be had. If I wanted one to go swimming with, I would seek a rough one at a dirt cheap price.
 
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As a relatively new collector compared to some of you, I am thankful for those of you that only want non refinished Smiths in your collection. This has helped those of us that do not have the budget for what some of these bring to have a representative in our collection. Obviously all things being equal I prefer an all original over any refinish. Here are my five refinished, and one modified/refinished Smiths I enjoy having them all.

GOOD FOR YOU, merl67. I HOPE THAT YOU ALLOW YOURSELF THE PLEASURE OF SHOOTING EVERY REVOLVER IN YOUR COLLECTION, AS WELL.......
 
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