Legality of LEO Commandeering Private Property
- Thread starter misswired
- Start date
I’m still amazed that the only two fatalities in that incident were the perps, despite them firing over 1000 rounds.
nachogrande
Member
And did Trooper Doofus cite himself, for speeding/reckless driving/speed in excess of 100 MPH?
500SNW
Member
Whether or not the police can commandeer a vehicle is solely up to the owner of the vehicle. Somebody show me a law where it says a Citizen is supposed to comply with such an order. Also show me case law where a Citizen refused and was criminally charged/convicted for not complying with such an order.
I didn't say I approved. I said it happened. It was a different atmosphere back in the day . . .
Cardboard_killer
Member
I believe that the SCOTUS, when ruling against the US Government's interning of Japanese-Americans after WW2 was over, wrote something to the effect that despite it being un-constitutional, in times of war such behavior is to be expected, and it is only during a time of peace that the court could clean up the mess after the fact.
I take that to mean that in the heat of the moment give the officer what he/she wants, then get to a court as soon as the shooting dies off.
I take that to mean that in the heat of the moment give the officer what he/she wants, then get to a court as soon as the shooting dies off.
ColbyBruce
Member
“I take that to mean that in the heat of the moment give the officer what he/she wants, then get to a court as soon as the shooting dies off.”
No. Someone takes off in your vehicle and wrecks it, perhaps involving multiple vehicles and possibly horrendous injuries and/or fatalities and the owner of that vehicle is screwed. You stand to lose everything you own and incur a mountain of debt.
No way I would take such a risk.
No. Someone takes off in your vehicle and wrecks it, perhaps involving multiple vehicles and possibly horrendous injuries and/or fatalities and the owner of that vehicle is screwed. You stand to lose everything you own and incur a mountain of debt.
No way I would take such a risk.
But that's not what happened in the OP's story. The trooper announced that he was taking the OP's boat, but in actuality, the OP drove him about, assisted in the search for the vehicle, and came back to get some divers. Nobody "took off" in anything . . .
ColbyBruce
Member
Correct, the OP stated that. The OP also stated that a LEO declared he was taking the boat; which morphed the thread into the color of authority/seizure of private property angle. Unless the LEO in the OP’s thread was capable of walking on water he would not of gotten in my boat.
500SNW
Member
These topics are fodder for endless debate on internet forums. Again, I challenge anyone to cite Federal, State or local laws granting LEO's authority to confiscate and use for "official purposes" a Citizen's property. Show me a law protecting the LEO for any damages resulting from such. Provide documentation ie. examples of case law where a Citizen did not comply and was prosecuted. Provide any kind of documentation...besides personal opinions.
Many states have statutes making it an offense to refuse or fail to assist a police officer, derived from the English common law adopted in various forms as part of the American legal systems.
Check the wikipedia on it if you don't want to bother looking up your own state's laws.
There are also in some states statutes or common law doctrines providing various degrees of qualified immunity for a civilian's reasonable actions in assisting a law enforcement officer. "Reasonable " is going to depend a lot in the circumstances of individual incidents. Check your own state if you're concerned about the consequences of refusing, or the possible consequences of assisting.
In my state, much of this was covered in the CCW training course.
Check the wikipedia on it if you don't want to bother looking up your own state's laws.
There are also in some states statutes or common law doctrines providing various degrees of qualified immunity for a civilian's reasonable actions in assisting a law enforcement officer. "Reasonable " is going to depend a lot in the circumstances of individual incidents. Check your own state if you're concerned about the consequences of refusing, or the possible consequences of assisting.
In my state, much of this was covered in the CCW training course.
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Here's Florida's law:
Statutes & Constitution
:View Statutes
:
Online Sunshine
Most states have similar laws. Most deal with failing to assist with an arrest or preventing a crime, but Florida's interestingly adds "preservation of the peace . . . " None that I know of deal specifically with confiscation of property, but I suspect the argument could be made that failing to provide a vehicle to an officer chasing Charles Manson would result in an arrest for failing to assist upon command . . .
Statutes & Constitution
:View Statutes
:
Online Sunshine
Most states have similar laws. Most deal with failing to assist with an arrest or preventing a crime, but Florida's interestingly adds "preservation of the peace . . . " None that I know of deal specifically with confiscation of property, but I suspect the argument could be made that failing to provide a vehicle to an officer chasing Charles Manson would result in an arrest for failing to assist upon command . . .
These topics are fodder for endless debate on internet forums. Again, I challenge anyone to cite Federal, State or local laws granting LEO's authority to confiscate and use for "official purposes" a Citizen's property. Show me a law protecting the LEO for any damages resulting from such. Provide documentation ie. examples of case law where a Citizen did not comply and was prosecuted. Provide any kind of documentation...besides personal opinions.
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ColbyBruce
Member
I followed the link and read the Georgia statutes. While it states a person acting under direction of an LEO will not be charged it does not protect the party in question from legal action. Hiring legal representation to defend oneself has bankrupted more than a handful of people. Considering the high number of bad shootings in the last few years a person would have to be crazy to involve themselves in such a thing.
I looked up NM in the wiki link. It says "failing to assist" is a petty misdemeanor.
How is "assist" defined? When "assisting", do civilians get the same quailed immunity as LE?
If not, and not being LE, given today's litigious society, and depending on the situation, I'd be very hesitant to "assist" and would take my chances in court if cited/arrested.
How is "assist" defined? When "assisting", do civilians get the same quailed immunity as LE?
If not, and not being LE, given today's litigious society, and depending on the situation, I'd be very hesitant to "assist" and would take my chances in court if cited/arrested.
Assuming the Wikipedia page is correct, at the federal level failing to provide assistance asked for by customs officers is a misdemeanor. Apparently that applies to only customs officers. Obviously that law was enacted to make the actions of officials in sanctuary cities illegal. That begs debate that is prohibited discussion here. At least on the Wikipedia page there is no mention of providing use of private property.
Again from Wikipedia Washingtonians are only required to summon aid after a police officer requests we summon aid. That is a far cry from providing the use of our private property.
Again from Wikipedia Washingtonians are only required to summon aid after a police officer requests we summon aid. That is a far cry from providing the use of our private property.
Walkingwolf
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This is what I remember, a officer can order a person to assist, and I guess the vehicle would be a tool of that person. As far as taking without due process, I think the lawyers would have field day with that. Civil forfeiture is not the same as commandeering. I don't think many police officers are going to risk running afoul of their community by forcing law abiding citizens to do something they don't want to do.
500SNW
Member
I suspect that many of these laws are quite old, and not well calibrated for present times. Thanks to Rusty for the Wikipedia link. I checked my own state of Ohio...it is a minor misdemeanor...well worth it if you ask me. Some might even consider such a conviction a badge of honor.
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TomkinsSP
Member
What I meant was that when my children were THREE, they had rediculous excuses for why they could not POSSIBLY be the one who (left the door open, the light on, thier coat on the floor, etc).
The driver,by saying his car is incapable of speeding, is acting like a three year old. I don't doubt it happened. I could write a book of all fertilizer I heard on the job.
