Modifications

[Wise_A]

I agree that training and good tactics, “software”, usually have more influence on winning a fight than “hardware”, modified or not. So can luck, or the incompetence of an adversary, neither of which should be counted on as part of a winning strategy.

Like I said, I don't think that incremental improvements have very much or any impact on the outcome, and given that most modifications have a corresponding drawback, aren't worth pursuing. If a fraction of a second really matters, then I've committed a grievous error elsewhere.

To give you an example of something that I think is worthwhile, I swapped out the baseplates on my Glocks with Vickers Tactical replacements. The OEM baseplates don't provide much of a grip in the event of a double-feed, while the Vickers units are nicely flared while retaining the same internal dimensions as the OEM. Very little chance of lowered reliability, but they correct a legitimate problem. I'd suggest extended baseplates are a good idea on many different designs (if you don't have a bumper on your 1911 mags, you must have a fetish for getting blood blisters on your palm), even though the chance of a double-feed is slight, and the chance that you'll have time to correct it is even slighter. So really, I wouldn't call someone stupid for not using them.

Sights are another area I think are entirely valid, although personally, I have excellent vision and they don't seem to make a big difference to me so long as I have real sights and not a J-frame-style milled channel or a pocket .380's "pyramid"-type.

But overwhelmingly, people focus on flashy stuff like triggers and barrel/slide work. I don't necessarily think they're buying a ticket to jail, nor are they ruining a handgun, I just think they'd be better off giving the money to a Bullseye master to teach them how how to really pull a trigger.

 

[Goldstar225]

CB3, only one question and I'll keep it short:

Given a unmodified, reliable handgun in 9mm or larger caliber, do you believe that you could successfully defend yourself in a typical defensive scenario?

 

[Chief Wiggums]

forum legal advice - I love it! (said nobody ever)

short & simple
Ive spoke to a local attorney on multiple occasions.

In the unfortunate event of using a firearm in SD , the following will happen:
you're getting sued
if gun mods were made , it will be spun against you as being a fanatic
your digital footprint will be investigated (how many gun forums you visit and the content of your post) IE further proof that we are all fanatics

 

[WR Moore]

Ronbo, one barrel is 1/4 inch shorter than another. I believe the 4 1/4 inch barrel was the full size gun, not the compact. That will have no practical effect on any performance metric you can think of.

Now, the most important factor in the accuracy of your handgun is YOU! You haven't owned a handgun in 35 years, per your post. Find some training in basic handgun skills (NRA has bunches of certified instructors) and spend money on practice ammo. Not futzing with the gun.

I carried a gun for a paycheck for over 30 years. Our issue handgun from introduction in 2006 to my retirement 9 years later was the M&P. I have a personally owned 9mm. None of them needed any aftermarket parts to deliver acceptable accuracy or reliability. Incidentally, a shocking number of co-workers like the issue piece so much they went out and bought their own for personal use.

Any M&P magazine longer compact or longer will fit. Slides aren't available, except from custom makers at preposterous prices. Other service/wear parts like springs, etc are available from various sources, including S&W. If you do manage to wear out a slide, S&W will replace it under the life time warranty.

 

[Wise_A]

Lots of choices.
Hello everyone this is Ronbo77. Going share a bit and then ask questions
I've been a hunter since 10 yrs old. Now just old. Lol.
Last time I had a pistol was 35 yrs ago. AMT 45.
But usually only use a shotgun for deer hunting.
With the bad things going on in the world today
I purchased a Smith and Wesson m&p 2.0 compact
In 9mm. With a 4 inch barrel. It was supposed to be a 4-1/4".
But when I got it home, and actually disassembled it.
Found out the truth. Haven't been to the Range yet
hope this weekend.
QUESTIONS: Will there be any differences between the barrel length
Of the 4 inch compared to the 4-1/4 ? On the accuracy?
I have been watching lots of videos of several people who
Upgrade guns. The only one I saw that helped the accuracy
of my m&p 2.0 compact 9mm was APEX.
Any thoughts?
Mostly can someone tell me what other s&w part's will
fit mine? Examples like, barrels, slides, triggers, magazine
clips,sights etc..

Barrel length--No. Generally-speaking, you'll find plenty of instances where individual 4" barrels deliver more velocity than 6" barrels. And no, there'll be no difference in accuracy, unless one or the other is damaged or poorly-made in some way.

Tbh, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a compact or sub-compact 9mm that didn't deliver far more accuracy than CCW demands.

The APEX kit is fine and all--I run a bunch of their parts in my G34--but again, the problem isn't the gun, it's the shooter. Aftermarket parts are just band-aid'ing issues one either doesn't have the time to correct, or the initiative.

As for the other stuff, post in S&W M&P Pistols.

 

[skipnsb]

To the OP re modifications as a potential liability: old civil trial lawyer here, no criminal or personal injury. But juries are juries. Anything the other side can bring up to make you look bad she will. Modified trigger "he's a trigger happy gun nut and should be punished". Failed to improve the trigger by installing an aftermarket improved safer trigger (or something) "he's an irresponsible careless person who should be punished". I pose legal questions to people all the time and am surprised at how their attitudes vary.

Some old lawyers say a jury is composed of people not smart enough to get out of jury duty. Sometimes I agree. Sometimes it works for me. There is a general saying that "if you are in the right, ask for a judge trial, but if you are in the wrong, ask for a jury".

 

[RGVshooter]

In all fairness I did try to read the OP's original post however I gave up after the first paragraph.

I glanced at a few comments & posts along the way down and I came to the conclusion that there is waaaay too much overthinking going on here....

I'm gonna go pop some popcorn and sit back......

 

[Chief Wiggums]

There is a general saying that "if you are in the right, ask for a judge trial, but if you are in the wrong, ask for a jury".

that sir , is the best free advice I have read in quite some time.
regards!

 

[WR Moore]

There is a general saying that "if you are in the right, ask for a judge trial, but if you are in the wrong, ask for a jury".

I heard this as an alleged 3 part law school aphorism: If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the facts are against you, argue the law. (next case is paraphrase) If both the facts and the law are against you, stage a theatrical.

[I think that last is supposed to be attack the credibility of everything on the other side, but it usually amounts to a theatrical. This is where a lot of dragging in stuff intended to demonize the opposition happens.]

 

[diyj98]

If it takes two square yards to shingle a two seat out house, how far does a rat **** have to fall to fall through a 2x4? That's a bigger concern to me currently than attorneys and any modifications I might want to make to my own firearms.

 

[Okie21]

In all fairness I did try to read the OP's original post however I gave up after the first paragraph.

I glanced at a few comments & posts along the way down and I came to the conclusion that there is waaaay too much overthinking going on here....

I'm gonna go pop some popcorn and sit back......

I'm guilty of over thinking these topics. As far as the legalities of a self defense shooting, I did my own research as best I could. My conclusion? I pay a very affordable monthly fee for one of those ccw insurance outfits. I read thru their literature, watched their videos, took what advice I could. If anything should ever happen, I'll let them fight the legal fight for me.
As far as modifying a firearm? Well, personally I don't, other than changing to thin grips to accommodate my small hands. But if a person wants to modify their guns, they have every right. Every mass marketed product has some kind of aftermarket following. You can modify your car, your guns, your face, your kitchen utensils. Have at it.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[fredj338]

Nothing wrong with fighting with a stock factory gun. If you are better with a slightly modified one, then so much the better. Surviving the fight is first. What comes after can be mitigated, but not much. No you are not likely to go to jail for changing parts on your ccw, but you will almost certainly be sued by the dead guys family.
Just be practical about any mod; better sights, better controls, even better trigger, all can be deemed making the weapon better in the fight. Having "punisher" grips or stupid aesthetic poop sayings engraved on your pistol is probably asking for a law suit though, so not wise.

 

[joeintexas]

Each to their own. The only modification (improvement) I have made to any of my firearms from the factory is add ammo! Sure did seem to make a difference.

 

[GerSan69]

OK, I'll give you one. A modified firearm.....
A local policeman killed an unarmed guy with an AR-15 back in 2016. He was charged with murder. The fact that the young officer, in his infinite wisdom that's the hallmark of young officers everywhere, had "You're ******" engraved on his rifle's dust cover, was the subject of quite a bit of back-and-forth in court. He also had the slightly-less provocative "Molon Labe" elsewhere on his firearm.
He was acquitted, but was fired.

 

[photoman]

I heard this as an alleged 3 part law school aphorism: If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the facts are against you, argue the law. (next case is paraphrase) If both the facts and the law are against you, stage a theatrical.

"Ask me how I know."

-O.J. Simpson

 

[Rastoff]

OK, I'll give you one. A modified firearm.....
A local policeman killed an unarmed guy with an AR-15 back in 2016. He was charged with murder. The fact that the young officer, in his infinite wisdom that's the hallmark of young officers everywhere, had "You're ******" engraved on his rifle's dust cover, was the subject of quite a bit of back-and-forth in court. He also had the slightly-less provocative "Molon Labe" elsewhere on his firearm.
He was acquitted, but was fired.

In this case the firearm was not modified. It was basically a stock AR with some sayings on it. Further, the shoot was extremely questionable. The person who was shot was trying to follow the policeman's commands, but his pants kept falling down. Thus his hand went to his pants when he was told not to do that. A stupid prank, a poor wardrobe choice and a policeman going into a tense situation got him killed. The gun and the saying on the gun were not factors in the case.

Exactly why he was fired is internal police business, but I'd bet money that it was because he embarrassed the department and not because he had any modification on the gun.

There is a general saying that "if you are in the right, ask for a judge trial, but if you are in the wrong, ask for a jury".

I heard this as an alleged 3 part law school aphorism: If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the facts are against you, argue the law. (next case is paraphrase) If both the facts and the law are against you, stage a theatrical.

If both the facts and the law are against you, you deserve the punishment. Ask for a plea bargain and be glad to get it.

 

[Whitwabit]

The firearms that I carry for everyday self defense have nothing but factory parts in them .. some of those parts have been slightly polished but not modified .. all specs remained the same as stock from the factory !!

I didn't see any reason too modify my normal carry .. My Berretta PX-4, in 9mm, 13+1 had a comfortable trigger pull and fit my hand very nicely almost like a glove with the large hand adjustment on the butt ..

I have a pistol that is modified and it is very sweet to shoot .. Tanfoglio TZ-75 Series 88, that has been modified with a trigger pull of 1.4 # that you almost think your breath will cause it to fire .. and with out very careful trigger finger control you will cause double taps as to be the norm instead of being something seldom done .. I would never carry it to much of a hair trigger but is sure fun to shoot ..

 

[Kiwi cop]

It seems to me that more self defense shootings occur with police officers than as “civilians”. Most police departments today have very few choices is the guns that officers carry (okay I accept that in smaller US departments there is some leeway but overall).

If I am standing on the competition line I want one of my lightly tuned 1911’s with mag well and enhanced grips in my holster. If I am on duty and approaching a situation I believe will require a firearm I will accept the Glock 17 in my holster but would prefer my M4 on a sling. The M4 is fitted with a red dot sight (originally we just had open sights but the red dot was added for “ease of use”j and an under barrel flashlight. Our Series 2 Glock are about to be replaced with Series 3 frames with the rail and the flashlight.

I can shoot the 1911 better but I can shoot the otherwise standard G17 well enough to not be bothered about it.

Now what I will say are two things. One: do you really want your mega dollar custom pistol held by the cops for years while things go through the courts, and risk getting it back unserviceable due to bad storage, or would you rather have a “stock” gun taken from you for the duration.

Two: it is not the tool that is used, it is the tool master. Training and mindset are more important that having a “gee whiz all the bells and whistles gun” on a defensive situation.

 

[GerSan69]

In this case the firearm was not modified. ...... The gun and the saying on the gun were not factors in the case.

Exactly why he was fired is internal police business, but I'd bet money that it was because he embarrassed the department and not because he had any modification on the gun.

This was simply the closest I could find regarding a "modification" actually making it all the way to court. This was described as a "modification" in court even if it doesn't meet our more-educated understanding of the term.
I should have mentioned that the obscene inscription was used by the County Attorney as proof that Brailsford was inclined to shoot people, so yes, it was "used against him." Since he was acquitted, I guess the jury didn't agree. Mesa is being sued for something like $75 million, so maybe we'll see if the engraving is mentioned in civil court, too. I'll bet it will.
One of the department charges was a rules violation for having a modified part on his AR, meaning the dust cover inscription. They got him for a few other things, too.
My old department was the same way, as are many, I would expect - a very specific list of what may be attached to an AR for on-duty use. I'm surprised that no one said anything to this guy before it ended up on the front page.
I fully admit that this is an extreme case on many fronts. But I thought I'd bring it up since there really don't seem to be that many instances in real life.

 

[Muss Muggins]

This was simply the closest I could find regarding a "modification" actually making it all the way to court. This was described as a "modification" in court even if it doesn't meet our more-educated understanding of the term . . .

I should have mentioned that the obscene inscription was used by the County Attorney as proof that Brailsford was inclined to shoot people, so yes, it was "used against him." Since he was acquitted, I guess the jury didn't agree. Mesa is being sued for something like $75 million, so maybe we'll see if the engraving is mentioned in civil court, too. I'll bet it will.

I've been keeping quiet on this until now. You're completely wrong in your statement above. Neither the inscription nor the logo were deemed admissible by the trial judge. The jury never heard about them.

Daniel Shaver shooting video tells us much more than the verdict

From the article (a real editorial from a real newspaper, not a gunblog, a gun rights organization, a discussion forum or Wikipedia):

Other evidence, not admissible in trial, suggested Brailsford may have a cowboy mentality. Etched on his AR-15 were the words “expletive deleted by OP” and engraved on its outside dust cover was a Greek motto of defiance "molon labe," meaning “come and take them.”