J frame loads

Axis223

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I have a 642, 10 and 60 and cannot get reload 125gr FP with HP-38 to shoot worth a hoot! The 642 prints them low and left in about softball and half groups at 21ft. The 60 prints them like buckshot with most being low and left and others slung all over. The model 10 seems to do okay with them but not great. From some reading I have done everyone suggests heavier bullets. Are these J frames really calibrated for heavier bullets?

I see a lot of suggestions for WC and SWC bullets. How about 158gr RN or Speer 135gr TMJ? Any other suggestions welcome.
 
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The 38 caliber guns S&W has made are calibrated for 158 gr bullets, standard velocity. Lighter weight bullets will print lower on the target. From 7 yards a K Frame 38 should be able to shoot into a couple inch group. Have you checked the bore of the guns for possible leading?
 
The 38 caliber guns S&W has made are calibrated for 158 gr bullets, standard velocity. Lighter weight bullets will print lower on the target. From 7 yards a K Frame 38 should be able to shoot into a couple inch group. Have you checked the bore of the guns for possible leading?

I don't think leading would be an issue as they have only shot FMJ or plated at lower velocities. Now the Model 10 would have shot some lead over its time and the 642 maybe as I purchased this used but the model 60 is brand new.
 
Need more information to diagnose your problems. What kind of bullet?
How much powder? Type of crimp? How are you testing for accuracy?
Shooting from rest or standing shooting double action? Has anyone else
shot your gun with different or same results?
 
Need more information to diagnose your problems. What kind of bullet?
How much powder? Type of crimp? How are you testing for accuracy?
Shooting from rest or standing shooting double action? Has anyone else
shot your gun with different or same results?
125gr Extreme FP, 4.3gr HP-38, seated to cannelure and taper crimped. I tried slightly roll crimping them in the 642 and it seemed to help. I couldn't believe just how bad the model 60 shot with them.

All were fired freehand and by 3 separate shooters. It was recommended in my M&P thread to use a rest to shoot from.
 
Your load is probably too light. Plated bullets are more similar to jacketed
than lead bullets from what have read and Extreme is plated, right?
Speer shows 5.6 grs 231/HP38 with a 125 gr jacketed bullet with a
warning not to reduce to avoid sticking a bullet in the bore. Roll crimp
in the groove to improve ignition. You probably are lucky you haven't
bulged a barrel yet. Shooting free hand tests the shooter not the
accuracy of a gun or load. Shoot from a solid rest single action slow
fire whenever you can.
 
It requires some experimentation for best results, but start with a heavy bullet, around 158 grains. I haven't seen a J-frame .38 Special gun yet that wouldn't shoot such a bullet fairly close to point-of-aim at 15 and 25 yards.

Use a good rest and good bench technique and concern yourself only with accuracy for the benchrest part. Shoot at 25 yards; this distance will help you weed out poor loads quickly. Shooting at a few yards will often tell you nothing more than some sorry loads are accurate up close.

You'll often lose 75 -100 fps or more in a snub nose gun vs. one with a longer barrel. It will vary from person-to-person, but I find using a two-handed Weaver-type stance at 25 yards will put the bullet impact very close to point-of-aim. Shooting one-hand "bullseye" style (my general preference) will show bullet strikes are several inches high at 25 yards.

Again, this will require some experimentation and practice. My results with taper crimping vs. roll crimping have been pretty much inconclusive with the .38 Special. Each can work well, but I've always found the best crimp is a minimal crimp, just enough to prevent bullet movement under recoil.

Almost all of my work has been with my own cast bullets, but jacketed should work fine. You can try other powders, but few really offer much, if any, advantage over HP-38 / Win. 231 in the .38 Special.

Some will criticize 25 yard shooting with a J-frame gun, but take the time to become proficient at that distance and you'll find shooting at closer distances becomes much easier. One needs to shoot up close (5, 10, and 15 yards) only to verify any point-of-impact change from the 25 yard range.
 
Your load is probably too light. Plated bullets are more similar to jacketed
than lead bullets from what have read and Extreme is plated, right?
Speer shows 5.6 grs 231/HP38 with a 125 gr jacketed bullet with a
warning not to reduce to avoid sticking a bullet in the bore. Roll crimp
in the groove to improve ignition. You probably are lucky you haven't
bulged a barrel yet. Shooting free hand tests the shooter not the
accuracy of a gun or load. Shoot from a solid rest single action slow
fire whenever you can.

Yes, Extreme is plated, so they recommend not using higher velocities so I use Hodgdons, Berrys bullet data.
 
I never really gave them a fair shake, but perhaps current plated bullets offer something other than being cheaper than jacketed bullets. My one experience with them some years ago in .38 Special showed nothing but gross inaccuracy.
 
Yes, Extreme is plated, so they recommend not using higher velocities so I use Hodgdons, Berrys bullet data.

I've never used plated bullets and never will. But yeah I've read
that they can strip the plating at higher velocities. But you're not
exactly going to get high velocity from a 1 7/8" J frame with
125 gr plated bullets and 4.3 grs HP38. Probably about 700 fps
which is in the danger zone for sticking with jacketed bullets.
5.6 grs will probably get you no more than about 825 fps in the
short barrels. 6.0 grs with a 125gr JHP chronos at around
880 fps out of my 1 7/8" mod 60 which about equals Rem
125 gr Golden Saber +P factory loads. BTW plated bullets are
not generally noted for being accurate. Good luck.
 
I never really gave them a fair shake, but perhaps current plated bullets offer something other than being cheaper than jacketed bullets. My one experience with them some years ago in .38 Special showed nothing but gross inaccuracy.

My M&P9 FS likes them for the most part. Jacketed .357 bullets are pricy. I may dabble in coated lead or find a bulk supplier of FMJ.
 
I've never used plated bullets and never will. But yeah I've read
that they can strip the plating at higher velocities. But you're not
exactly going to get high velocity from a 1 7/8" J frame with
125 gr plated bullets and 4.3 grs HP38. Probably about 700 fps
which is in the danger zone for sticking with jacketed bullets.
5.6 grs will probably get you no more than about 825 fps in the
short barrels. 6.0 grs with a 125gr JHP chronos at around
880 fps out of my 1 7/8" mod 60 which about equals Rem
125 gr Golden Saber +P factory loads. BTW plated bullets are
not generally noted for being accurate. Good luck.

Yes, you're not going to hit the 1200fps in a 38 special load without going over pressure let alone the 1500 you can't go over according to them. Their site says above 1200fps to use their heavy plated ones for best accuracy.

38 special is an odd one because the round is a slow moving low pressure job. Think about it, they say to use mid range jacketed data. The 38 special AND 357 magnum use the SAME bullet from them. Top 38 loads sure aren't up to the same pressure and speed of a mid 357! Nothing magical happens when you stick a bullet in a 357 case that makes it stronger and able to handle mid mags. That's the problem with blanket statements made like "use mid range data" as what's mid for some is wayyyyy off for others.

Just keep it under 1200fps to be safe and all is good. In a 38, no problem.
 
I realize a lot of shooters and handloaders are not bullet casters, but there is really nothing a jacketed or plated bullet can offer over a cast bullet that "fits" and is of the right the alloy for the purpose. Granted, it takes time and no small amount of effort to arrive at the right combination, but accuracy can be excellent and the bullets can also expand if that's a requirement.
 
Sounds like your handloads are the issue if this is happening across three platforms. I handload 125 gn RNFP lead(my own cast) with titegroup through my 642, R8 and Model66, they're more accurate than me. Yes my 642 will print low with these bullets but they are plenty accurate. I never saw any windage issues with the j-frame. At 7 yards, if you do your part, all of these guns are capable of a ragged hole accuracy. In auto pistols, sometimes more velocity is the key to better accuracy with jacketed bullets. If your loads are light, try bumping up the charge(within safety limits of course) and see what that gets you. Keep us posted !
 
Here's what you need to know about plated bullets: The lower the velocity, the more they act like a jacketed bullet. The higher the velocity, the more they act like a lead bullet.

Scotty
 
Still having issues. 135gr Speer TMJ, 125gr HP and 158gr RNFP. I'm going to order some MBC 148gr DBWC.
 

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Gun shoots high:use a lighter bullet or get it out of the tube faster.
Gun shoots low:use a heavier bullet or get it out of the tube more slowly.
Yes you may use a 158 in your J frame.It is not the weight of the bullet that may damage the gun but the pressure at which you load it.
In my 37,I use a 154gr cast swc with a load that comes out of a 6'' bbl at a little over 900fps.I guess(sorry no chrono on the 2'' tube)it comes out at around 775 to 800 fps from the little fellow.
In an aluminium J frame,it gets your attention when you touch one off but at 15 yds,it'll put all 5 in a 6'' circle.
 
You might lose more velocity than you think when going from a 4" or 6" gun to a snub nose 2". My notes indicate a cast 160 SWC and 3.5 Bullseye gets 880 in a 6" Model 14 and 730 in a 2" (not sure if I chronographed this in a 2" Chief or a 2" Detective Special). 4.3 231 is at 860 in the 6" barrel and 730 in the 2".

These figures will vary somewhat from my guns to yours, but the numbers will give a pretty fair indication of velocity loss. Despite what some Internet experts claim, such a slow load and heavy bullet still penetrate well.
 
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