Factors in Surviving Gunfights

Far too many people use this mindset as an excuse to not do the hard thing and learn the fundamentals of marksmanship. Jerking the trigger, even at close range will either get you a miss (perhaps endangering others) or a hit that won't stop the threat. I doubt that there is a place that documents and scrutinizes shootouts of civilians; certainly nowhere like police incidents.

There are numerous stats available on civilian incidents and I've shared them numerous times on this forum, plus there are countless individual news reports and video footage available of individual cases. Active self-protection has put out a ton on YouTube. Running gun battles in the streets is not something that would likely be ignored. I learned the fundamentals of shooting as a kid and I don't see learning acceptable defensive marksmanship as being all that difficult to attain. What is relatively difficult and usually completely dismissed by most gun guys is learning the desirable self-defense skills that are most likely to be useful for civilian self-defense and they will use every excuse in the book to avoid more involved intensive training.

In terms of shooting and "jerking the trigger", this video is spot on IMO...

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I&t=4s[/ame]
 
There are numerous stats available on civilian incidents and I've shared them numerous times on this forum, plus there are countless individual news reports and video footage available of individual cases. Active self-protection has put out a ton on YouTube. Running gun battles in the streets is not something that would likely be ignored. I learned the fundamentals of shooting as a kid and I don't see learning acceptable defensive marksmanship as being all that difficult to attain. What is relatively difficult and usually completely dismissed by most gun guys is learning the desirable self-defense skills that are most likely to be useful for civilian self-defense and they will use every excuse in the book to avoid more involved intensive training.

In terms of shooting and "jerking the trigger", this video is spot on IMO...

YouTube
I absolutely agree that trigger control tops all fundamentals. I'm not sure what you mean by self-defense skills in a gun fight. Are you talking about tactics? Learning marksmanship to the point that one can hit a mark under duress, is primary. Learning to draw the handgun, reload, etc. comes after learning the basics. Any good training beats no training. The problem comes when folks try to teach themselves how to defend themselves with a handgun before getting an understanding of what needs to be accomplished and the proper road to get there. Learning from a good instructor can streamline the process.
 
Fun things in a list:

(1) That's a nice strawman you got there.

(2) "Generalist skillset". That means focusing on neither 50-yard X-rings, nor shoot-fast. It means developing many different skills, and being able to do many things well, from marksmanship, to movement, to physical fitness.

(3) Bandying statistics about the "average" deadly force encounter doesn't do you a ton of good when Skeeter hops out of his pickup with a damn 10/22 from 25 yards out. Hence the whole point of being able to do many things well than mastering just one or two. No, you won't be the best at any given thing, but you'll very rarely be caught completely flat-footed. Hell, frequently attempting new things by itself is good practice.

(3a) None of us live in an "average" sort of place. Where I am, Skeeter and his 10/22 are a hell of a lot more commonplace than what I'm guessing is the "average" attempted murderer. I friggin' know Skeeter.

(4) I've sat around and watched not-new shooters miss 2'x3' targets just five yards away. A blind guy in North Dakota literally did better.

(5) Most people don't take expensive roll-on-the-ground classes because they can't afford the time or money. Deadly force encounters are still rare, and dropping what for a lot of folks would be 2% of their family's annual income on a single weekend for themselves is, frankly, as selfish as it sounds. Now, you can either sit around deriding them for not being "hardcore enough", or you can admit that a $40 pair of running shoes and a 1-mile jog every other day will probably "prepare" them for a roll-on-the-ground fight far more than getting their out-of-shape butt kicked for one weekend. Do your damn cardio.
 
I absolutely agree that trigger control tops all fundamentals. I'm not sure what you mean by self-defense skills in a gun fight. Are you talking about tactics? Learning marksmanship to the point that one can hit a mark under duress, is primary. Learning to draw the handgun, reload, etc. comes after learning the basics. Any good training beats no training. The problem comes when folks try to teach themselves how to defend themselves with a handgun before getting an understanding of what needs to be accomplished and the proper road to get there. Learning from a good instructor can streamline the process.
Mister X will be along shortly to defend his POV, but pretty sure his from his postings, his position it that "fight" is the root word of gunfight, that gunfights are mostly entangled affairs, and knowing how to fight (self defense skill) is more important than gun handling skills. The gun is just one tool in the toolbox. I think there's some merit to that idea, but I don't think it's as universal as he seems to.
 
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If armed, self-defense skills would include being able to quickly and efficiently access the weapon when moving, in contact with assailants or even on the ground and then be capable of being able to use and retain it under the same circumstances. Standalone unarmed skills as well as integrated with using the firearm are very important as well.

Being physically fit, strong and mobile is something that is infinitely useful in the context of self-defense as is deescalation and avoidance skills, an understanding of situational awareness(what to actually look for) and the tactics and strategies that actually apply to civilian self-defense.

Most armed civilian encounters that I'm aware of where shots are fired by the defender aren't actually entangled, but they are almost always at very close and there is frequently some contact(intentional or inadvertent) made. However, most people don't carry a gun, have no real training or skulls and are simply victims and there is also the possibility that some victims were carrying, but unable to access their weapon.

I can find pretty much endless video footage of multiple unarmed assailents(BLM, inner city kids, Antifa types etc.)attacking individuals, but hardly any where a gun was produced by the victims. If more people carried and had some basic close-quarter skills, I think the number of documented contact and entangled shootings would go up very dramatically. Keep in mind when looking at stats or available incidents, untrained people or those with average skills at best are generally involved, so a lot of what you see won't apply to a highly skilled, well trained individual. For example, what normally happens in most unarmed streetfight or bar fights wouldn't necessarily apply to the UFC heavyweight champion since his ability differs so greatly from the average individual. The same would apply to someone well trained in full spectrum self-defense skills.

When considering civilian self-defense in general, incidents do involve contact when you look at it as a whole including fistfights, physical assaults, rape, all contact weapon(knives, bludgeons), attacks. In terms of the attacker being armed with a gun, armed robbery, muggings, carjacking and rape are the most likely threats and they will occur at very close distances since the criminal wants something from you. Initial compliance or an unarmed response may be better than immediately going for your gun.

What I don't see with any regularity outside of two rival gangs engaging each other or miltary/police incidents is anything that resembles a protracted, ranged gunfight with two parties shooting it out with each other whether in the open or utilizing cover. Although exceedingly unlikely, if someone just started randomly shooting at me from distance in a parking lot or in the mall, I for sure am not going to stand there and draw my weapon and return fire. The most important ability would be the physical ability to move and extricate myself from the scene completely rather than engage. But, maybe your physically impaired and can't run very well. Well, luckily the odds of someone just randomly targeting you and shooting at you from long range or being involved in some type of active-shooter scenario is astronomically rare. So much so that I don't hardly give it much thought despite it being a popular topic on gun forums.

The bottom line is that if you're overweight, out of shape, have no training other than standing in a static stance shooting non-moving paper targets at the range, then I don't think you are very well prepared to defend yourself against the most likely threats you face no matter how accurately you are at putting rounds on target at the range. The only place I see traditional marksmanship possibly being of much benefit would be in certain home defense scenarios, but even then I think it a much better idea to avoid engaging at all or for as long as possible by putting as many barriers between you and the intruders to buy time with any eventual forced shooting subsequently being conducted at very short range. I also wouldn't rule out fleeing the home as the best response in some instances. If ambushed, then we're back to those close-quarter skills again.

Everyone has a finite amount of time, energy and resources, so it makes sense to me to allocate the majority of my training time toward preparing what's most likely. Pretty much everything is possible, but not everything is probable. And keep in mind, everyone has different abilities and limitations, so approaches will differ from person to person.
 
What I train for is a close range encounter with a short time frame. I shoot while moving and I utilize accurate unsighted fire. I live in a very small town out in the boonies and I don't go to the dazzling big cities that often, so it is unlikely that I will use my skills in a social encounter. I hope and pray that I never have to.

So, while I still practice pure marksmanship, I recognize that 25- and 50-yard bullseye shooting with very generous time allowances, has limited application to self defense. Please note what I said: 'limited', not 'none'. It can't hurt, in any event.
 
" Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow, especially if the son-of-a-bitch is shootin' back at you." Gene Hackman as Little Bill Daggett in Unforgiven
 
If armed, self-defense skills would include being able to quickly and efficiently access the weapon when moving, in contact with assailants or even on the ground and then be capable of being able to use and retain it under the same circumstances. Standalone unarmed skills as well as integrated with using the firearm are very important as well.

Being physically fit, strong and mobile is something that is infinitely useful in the context of self-defense as is deescalation and avoidance skills, an understanding of situational awareness(what to actually look for) and the tactics and strategies that actually apply to civilian self-defense.

Most armed civilian encounters that I'm aware of where shots are fired by the defender aren't actually entangled, but they are almost always at very close and there is frequently some contact(intentional or inadvertent) made. However, most people don't carry a gun, have no real training or skulls and are simply victims and there is also the possibility that some victims were carrying, but unable to access their weapon.

I can find pretty much endless video footage of multiple unarmed assailents(BLM, inner city kids, Antifa types etc.)attacking individuals, but hardly any where a gun was produced by the victims. If more people carried and had some basic close-quarter skills, I think the number of documented contact and entangled shootings would go up very dramatically. Keep in mind when looking at stats or available incidents, untrained people or those with average skills at best are generally involved, so a lot of what you see won't apply to a highly skilled, well trained individual. For example, what normally happens in most unarmed streetfight or bar fights wouldn't necessarily apply to the UFC heavyweight champion since his ability differs so greatly from the average individual. The same would apply to someone well trained in full spectrum self-defense skills.

When considering civilian self-defense in general, incidents do involve contact when you look at it as a whole including fistfights, physical assaults, rape, all contact weapon(knives, bludgeons), attacks. In terms of the attacker being armed with a gun, armed robbery, muggings, carjacking and rape are the most likely threats and they will occur at very close distances since the criminal wants something from you. Initial compliance or an unarmed response may be better than immediately going for your gun.

What I don't see with any regularity outside of two rival gangs engaging each other or miltary/police incidents is anything that resembles a protracted, ranged gunfight with two parties shooting it out with each other whether in the open or utilizing cover. Although exceedingly unlikely, if someone just started randomly shooting at me from distance in a parking lot or in the mall, I for sure am not going to stand there and draw my weapon and return fire. The most important ability would be the physical ability to move and extricate myself from the scene completely rather than engage. But, maybe your physically impaired and can't run very well. Well, luckily the odds of someone just randomly targeting you and shooting at you from long range or being involved in some type of active-shooter scenario is astronomically rare. So much so that I don't hardly give it much thought despite it being a popular topic on gun forums.

The bottom line is that if you're overweight, out of shape, have no training other than standing in a static stance shooting non-moving paper targets at the range, then I don't think you are very well prepared to defend yourself against the most likely threats you face no matter how accurately you are at putting rounds on target at the range. The only place I see traditional marksmanship possibly being of much benefit would be in certain home defense scenarios, but even then I think it a much better idea to avoid engaging at all or for as long as possible by putting as many barriers between you and the intruders to buy time with any eventual forced shooting subsequently being conducted at very short range. I also wouldn't rule out fleeing the home as the best response in some instances. If ambushed, then we're back to those close-quarter skills again.

Everyone has a finite amount of time, energy and resources, so it makes sense to me to allocate the majority of my training time toward preparing what's most likely. Pretty much everything is possible, but not everything is probable. And keep in mind, everyone has different abilities and limitations, so approaches will differ from person to person.
Unfortunately most of us cannot train to be a ninja. Many of us are older and/or have physical limitations. That leaves us pretty much with a gun for protection. It looks like you pretty much discount trigger control, which is the most valuable marksmanship skill. I firmly disagree. In many instances, especially during home invasions, the victim seems to often break free to retrieve a firearm, thus ending the attack.
 
" Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow, especially if the son-of-a-bitch is shootin' back at you." Gene Hackman as Little Bill Daggett in Unforgiven
But Little Bill ended up dead! :)
 
Unfortunately most of us cannot train to be a ninja. Many of us are older and/or have physical limitations. That leaves us pretty much with a gun for protection. It looks like you pretty much discount trigger control, which is the most valuable marksmanship skill. I firmly disagree. In many instances, especially during home invasions, the victim seems to often break free to retrieve a firearm, thus ending the attack.

Did you watch the video I shared in post #62?

So, you're saying home invasions often involve a physical struggle requiring H2H fighting, breaking free and scrambling to get to a firearm?

Being older or having a handicap makes you more likely to be targeted by criminals, because you are more vulnerable and easier prey. You have to prepare accordingly with consideration of your limitations, even if it's just understanding the dynamics and running through what you could do visualizing your options. No ninja training required. Just saying you're going to rely on the gun isn't realistic since you won't always have time, distance and ample warning. Even people in wheelchairs who carry a gun can learn situational awareness and some basic H2H skills like at least learning how to shield their head(cover up)against strikes or recover and position themselves to access and use their firearm if knocked from their wheelchair.
 
When I find myself in places like large parking lots and parking garages, I crank my 'spidey sense' way up and walk with my hand in my pistol pocket.

I am so full of Xarelto that my blood is thinner than jailhouse soup. Any serious flesh wound could put me in the express lane.
 
Concerning the decision and will to kill, hunting.

All of us who eat animals indirectly kill them. Cutting out the invisible middlemen who do this job for you and killing them yourself enhances your appreciation for life and steels you for doing it.

I'm not saying that a father's or mother's instinct to protect a child isn't enough motivation to kill when necessary. There are many factors that go into the decision, and hunting could be helpful.

Just buying, possessing or carrying a gun implies the will to kill, but in truth it is far from the legal, moral and spiritual commitment necessary to do so.

Apologies to the "shoot to stoppers" who think they won't have to kill someone.
Let me ask this: You have been in a fight and you have wounded your foe. He is still alive.

Do you finish him off if the objective is shooting to kill? Is it OK to administer a coup de grace?
 
There are too many varibles to give advice. Gun fight implies both parties are armed. If somebody is waving a gun around that is a direct threat. You have to decide if you want to take the chance the guy won't shoot you in whatever situation you are in or can you extract yourself without shooting.
What is at stake? money, car it may be better to let them have it. Right or wrong shooting is going to cost you. To protect life is a different story and
with today's punks they shoot people just for the rep they get with their crowd. It's your choice to shoot or take the chance you are going to be shot just for grins,
 
Gerhard1-I don't know what CB3 will say. That will be interesting. But if your assailant is no longer a threat, a final shot to "finish him off" could be considered a homicide if he dies. I'm guessing you feel the same.

Quite so; I would feel that way.

BTW, a minor quibble. If I kill my foe and it is ruled justifiable, that is still a homicide, since homicide is defined as the killing of a human being by another human.

If a coup de grace is administered, that would be murder or at the very least, manslaughter. I presume from your handle and the badge that you are LE, and you know this, but not everyone does. There is an exception and I'm not certain that is valid in the US. Do you know what it is?
 

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