Red Flag Laws

[delcrossv]

With the President's announcement concerning proposed "federalizing" of so called Red Flag laws, its seems meet to post this testimony made before the Senate Judiciary Committee. by Dr. David Kopel. In order to preserve our rights under the 2nd and 4th Amendments, we must be very leery of any infringements on due process. I suggest that any proposed Federal "Red Flag" law must, at the minimum, address the concerns in Dr. Kopel's testimony. Pay attention to bills proposed and call your representatives.

Worth a read.

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Kopel%20Testimony1.pdf

 

[armadillo]

Beware the "ex parte" nature of these red flag proposals. Someone can convince the court to take away your rights and "put you away" without notifying you in advance or allowing you to present your side.

The accuser gets government funded legal representation and the gun owner gets stuck with expensive legal bills to try to undo confiscation after-the-fact.

 

[David LaPell]

The only thing I can hope for is someone sues after this, takes it to SCOTUS and they rule it Unconstitutional. I hope that the make up of this court allows that and that if between now and 2020 if Ruth Bader Ginsburg ends up out one way or another (not wishing her any ill will) that there would be a solid argument and reason to get it there, another new judge will be good in case Roberts gets froggy like he's been doing lately.

 

[Muss Muggins]

What I will say is that nearly every mass shooter in recent years exhibited signs of mental instability, and most should have been hospitalized and addressed way before the trigger got pulled. The Dayton shooter is a prime example. Properly administered, these laws are a good thing. Of course “properly administered” is a moving target . . .

 

[gman51]

I see nothing good coming from Red Flag laws. It is simply a gun grab back door tactic. A 3 a.m. knock on your door to take your guns is just asking for an escalation of danger. At least one man is dead already. Oh yeah let's take his guns for his own as well as other people's safety. WOW! He is dead now. Some safety that Red Flag law provided for him. All because a relative was angry and figured this was a good way to get back at him.
I imagine the politicians that voted for this will be voted out of their job come next election. Trump needs to take a close look at the bad repercussions that could very well come from this anti 2nd Amendment tactic.

It has been reported concerning several mass shootings that the shooters were on FBI lists or had even been investigated previously. So much for back ground checks.

 

[Walkingwolf]

There has to be serious felony prosecution of abuse of red flag laws for them to be acceptable. A five year prison sentence for false reporting, and murder charges in the case of a death. So far for some reason some people make false accusations with no repercussions.

 

[Muss Muggins]

This makes no sense . . .

There has to be serious felony prosecution of abuse of red flag laws for them to be acceptable. A five year prison sentence for false reporting, and murder charges in the case of a death. So far for some reason some people make false accusations with no repercussions.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Serial 'swatter' Tyler Barriss sentenced to 20 years for death of Kansas man shot by police Serial '''swatter''' Tyler Barriss sentenced to 20 years for death of Kansas man shot by police

 

[Watchdog]

I see nothing good coming from Red Flag laws. It is simply a gun grab back door tactic. A 3 a.m. knock on your door to take your guns is just asking for an escalation of danger. At least one man is dead already. Oh yeah let's take his guns for his own as well as other people's safety. WOW! He is dead now.

This one-man-is-dead-already-because-of-a-red-flag-law seems to pop up on this forum every time red flag laws come up for discussion.

Some safety that Red Flag law provided for him. All because a relative was angry and figured this was a good way to get back at him.

Let's set the record straight one more time.

Ferndale, Maryland, November 5, 2018. Gary Willis, 61, shot and killed by police who were attempting to serve a warrant in accordance with Maryland's recently passed ERPO law. ERPOs are just another name for red flag laws.

Willis answered the door holding a handgun. He then put the gun down on a table next to the door. When officers began to serve him the order, Willis became irate and grabbed his gun. One of the officers tried to take the gun from Willis, but instead Willis fired the gun. The second officer fired a gun, striking Willis. He died at the scene.

Gary Willis did not die because a relative was mad at him and thought this would be a good way to "get back" at him. He didn't die because of a red flag law.

He died because of his own stupidity and irrational behavior.

It's a really bad idea to pick up a gun while the cops are trying to serve a warrant on you. And an even worse idea to pull the trigger.

Don't believe me? I'm not making this up. Read about it here, here, or here.

 

[Walkingwolf]

I believe gman is referring to the relative swatting him over an argument. I wasn't there so I know nothing of what caused the shooting. But if the police were called over a disagreement the person responsible should be charged.

 

[BC38]

There has to be serious felony prosecution of abuse of red flag laws for them to be acceptable. A five year prison sentence for false reporting, and murder charges in the case of a death. So far for some reason some people make false accusations with no repercussions.

This makes PERFECT sense. People falsely invoking a red flag law as a way of "getting back at someone" or anyone making false statements to get an ERPO on anyone for any reason should be subject to full prosecution for any bad outcome. They should also be held responsible for the legal expenses of the person they falsely used the ERPO laws against. There should be SERIOUS consequences for false reporting leading to an unjustified ERPO. We cannot allow these laws to be falsely used against others with no repercussions.

 

[Muss Muggins]

False report to LE laws are already on the books. Isn’t the mantra of the gun folks that we don’t need more laws, we need people to enforce the ones already out there? Apologies if I’m wrong . . .

This makes PERFECT sense. People falsely invoking a red flag law as a way of "getting back at someone" or anyone making false statements to get an ERPO on anyone for any reason should be subject to full prosecution for any bad outcome. They should also be held responsible for the legal expenses of the person they falsely used the ERPO laws against. There should be SERIOUS consequences for false reporting leading to an unjustified ERPO. We cannot allow these laws to be falsely used against others with no repercussions.

 

[BC38]

False report to LE laws are already on the books. Isn’t the mantra of the gun folks that we don’t need more laws, we need people to enforce the ones already out there? Apologies if I’m wrong . . .

You aren't wrong, BUT, as far as I know they aren't being enforced or prosecuted at this time.

However, the penalties for a run-of-the-mill false report aren't nearly severe enough for this particular brand of false reporting IMO. Filing this kind of false report has a higher than average probability of resulting in a life or death situation than falsely reporting that your neighbor's dog is running around off leash, or that they stole your newspaper.

Consequently the penalty should be correspondingly greater, and it needs to be incorporated into the ERPO statutes so that anti gun judges and prosecutors have less discretion , or better yet NO discretion, about going after those filing the false reports.

New laws (ERPOs) require new penalties for their abuse.

 

[squidsix]

Exactly.
If only there were a way we could make it illegal to hurt people. Then we would really be on to something.

 

[Muss Muggins]

You aren't wrong, BUT, as far as I know they aren't being enforced or prosecuted at this time.

You on the PA or PD call list for charges filed? I look at court filings every day so I can bond people out. False reports get filed. Did one this week. Of course, from the armchair, shouting at Fox News, it may seem different. Sadly, your position is commonly held. Those in the trenches know otherwise . . .

 

[BC38]

You on the PA or PD call list for charges filed? I look at court filings every day so I can bond people out. False reports get filed. Did one this week. Of course, from the armchair, shouting at Fox News, it may seem different. Sadly, your position is commonly held. Those in the trenches know otherwise . . .

Interesting that if the false reporters are being punished the info isn't getting out in either the MSM or on the 'net, even with ERPOs being such a hot news topic - from the perspective of those both for and against them.

But I'm sure what is happening in "the bootheel and the heart of flyover country" is exactly representative of the whole country. BTW, does Missouri even have an ERPO law yet?

 

[Sistema1927]

"Red Flag" laws are a serious infringement of due process.

 

[BC38]

"Red Flag" laws are a serious infringement of due process.

Unfortunately, as they have been being implemented they certainly are. BUT they don't have to be. Theoretically an appropriate system of checks and balances could be implemented.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Yeah, we don’t have that fancy interweb here. Any further comments by you will be duly noted . . .

Interesting that if the false reporters are being punished the info isn't getting out in either the MSM or on the 'net, even with ERPOs being such a hot news topic - from the perspective of those both for and against them.

But I'm sure what is happening in "the bootheel and the heart of flyover country" is exactly representative of the whole country.

 

[BC38]

Yeah, we don’t have that fancy interweb here. Any further comments by you will be duly noted . . .

And right back atcha' pard - as are so may of your posts .

Nobody ever said that false reporting charges don't get filed - just that they don't seem to be getting filed for this particular form of false report. From what I'm seeing Missouri doesn't even have a red flag law yet. It was proposed in March 2018 but didn't pass. Or did they pass one since then, because I'm not finding it on the 'net. So are you "doing" bonds for ERPO cases, or are you talking about some other kind of false reporting cases and saying that proves that people filing false ERPOs are being prosecuted?

I know what a master of the innerwegs you are, can you provide us with some links to prosecutions of people for filing false ERPOs? I'm sure they would make good reading, and if they exist I'm sure you can point us to them...