Whatever happened to three old-timey powders...800X, Herco, and 4227?

[sniper]

Hello guys; The three used to be prominently displayed in most reloading manuals, but no more. Does anyone have reliable sources for mid range ~900 fps loads for the 357 Magnum, using Magnum brass and standard primers? Would some of the older reloading manuals (avoiding Speer #8) be good sources of information?
Or would the old standby, 2400, do everything they can, and perhaps a bit more? Bullseye and the like need not apply.
Thanx

 

[Nevada Ed]

You got to keep moving or the Buzzards will get ya !!

 

[rockquarry]

Solely from my experience, based almost exclusively on cast bullets use in handgun cartridges...

800X is a great powder for accurate cast bullet loads in .45 ACP but meters poorly. I've used it a few times in the last forty years but probably won't buy another can.

I've never seen a need for either of the 4227s, having always used #2400 instead.

Herco is a versatile powder I've used for a long time. It's useful in many "Unique"-type powder applications as the burn rates are similar. It's my favorite .44 Special powder. Excellent for making very accurate 200 grain cast bullet loads. I've also had good accuracy results with Herco in 9mm cast loads. I'm sure I've used it in other handgun cartridges as well.

For some reason, Herco seems to have fallen out of favor and many younger handloaders probably aren't aware of its existence. It's not listed in loading manuals nowadays as frequently as it was some years ago, but it remains a useful powder.

 

[6GUNSONLY]

I have no experience with 800x or Herco, but use 4227 regularly. It will serve well in applications where 2400 would be used, but is a little slower burn rate. It seems to shoot cleaner nearer the top of the pressure curve. I bought several #s at a good price a few years back - had not used it in many years, so we had to get reacquainted. It is a very serviceable powder in my opinion with no bad habits other than maybe a little more residue than some, but as stated that seems to be mostly eliminated in upper level loads.

 

[trapper9260]

I use both 4227 and 2400 for different loads.lot of times you will see both of them listed for the same ga or cartilage.IMR 4227 is still out there and I read somewhere that H4227 is the same now.since IMR was selling better then H.

 

[BB57]

Newer reloading manuals are weighted heavily toward newer powders, rather than repeating data for older powders covered in previous editions. I don't get rid of old editions even after I've purchased a new edition.


I did a search using loaddata.com which uses data from published sources, including old editions, new editions, and data published in magazines like "Handloader". It's worth $29 or so per year subscription.

All the normal legal and safety disclaimers apply, and the publishers or loaddata.com may have made a typo, an error, etc, or I may have made a copy/paste error. So use your own good judgement and primary source of data as this is just to give you an idea of what data and sources are out there.

Herco

From the Lyman Cast bullet handbook:

Notes: cases: Federal; trim-to length: 1.285"; primers: CCI 550; primer size: Small Pistol Magnum; Lyman shell holder: No. 1; cast bullets used size to .357" dia.; firearm used: Universal Receiver and Special Vented Barrel; barrel length: 4"; twist: 1-18 3/4"; groove diameter: .356"

158 Cast #358311 Alliant Herco 6.3 963
Remarks: sugg. start load; 18,700 cup

158 Cast #358311 Alliant Herco 7.9 1203
Remarks: max load; 41,000 cup


IMR-4227:

From Speer #14:

Notes: max. case length: 1.290"; trim-to length: 1.280"; max cart. OAL: 1.590"; RCBS shell holder: #6; cart. case: Speer; primer: CCI 500 (except where otherwise specified in remarks); test firearm: S&W model 19; barrel length: 6"; NOTE: Do not use the 110-grain Gold Dot SB HP (#4009) in the 357 Magnum; maximum loads should be used with CAUTION

158 Speer TMJ FN, UCHP, GDHP or UCSP IMR IMR-4227 15.0 1003
Remarks: start charge

158 Speer TMJ FN, UCHP, GDHP or UCSP IMR IMR-4227 17.0 1126
Remarks: maximum charge


From Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook:

Notes: cases: Federal; trim-to length: 1.285"; primers: CCI 550; primer size: Small Pistol Magnum; Lyman shell holder: No. 1; cast bullets used size to .357" dia.; firearm used: Universal Receiver and Special Vented Barrel; barrel length: 4"; twist: 1-18 3/4"; groove diameter: .356"

158 Cast #358311 IMR IMR-4227 11.8 977
Remarks: sugg. start load; 19,600 cup

158 Cast #358311 IMR IMR-4227 17.0 1345
Remarks: max load; compressed powder charge; 40,600 cup; potentially most accurate load

From Lyman Reloading Manual 49th edition:

Notes: cases: Federal; trim-to length: 1.280"; primers: CCI 550; primer size: Small Pistol, Magnum; Lyman shell holder: No. 1; firearm used: Universal Receiver; barrel length: 4"; twist: 1-18 3/4"; groove dia.: .356"

158 Hornady Jacketed HP IMR IMR-4227 12.2 944
Remarks: sugg. start load; 21,500 cup; 1.590" OAL

158 Hornady Jacketed HP IMR IMR-4227 16.1 1249
Remarks: max load; 41,400 cup; 1.590" OAL


-----

I did not find any .357 Magnum data for 800x, although it's one of my favorite powders for .38+P loads

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have been loading for 40 years, and the vast majority of my handgun loads are with WW231!

I still have the first can of 2400 I bought, I just don't use it that much! I have never used 800x or it's brother 700x! I go through 1 or 2 pounds a year usually, but this last rear I used 4 pounds of 4227. Almost all of it went into Blackout! (what a fun cartridge when suppressed.)

With 4227 H or IMR I curranty load:

22 Hornet (Rifle and Contender)

218 Bee (Ruger No 1)

221 Fireball (2 Contenders)

223 Rem (14" Contender)

300 ACC Blackout (220 grain Sub-sonic)

357 Mag (180gr JSP for Carbine and N-Frames)

The local Cabela's gets an order (I assume 8 cans) every other month and sell out is 2 to 3 weeks) some body besides me is buying it!

Ivan

 

[serger]

During the component drought of 2010-14 I needed powder. I dug
out the Speer, Hornady, and Lyman books. 38spl, 45.acp and
9mm was what I wanted to load.

I found something in the burn rate range of Unique would be good.
At the Sportmans Warehouse off I-25 & 84th Ave in Thornton CO (Denver)
I saw they were out of about everything. They had heavy rifle
powders and a few shotgun powders.

There was a 8lb can of Herco for $104.00. One of the 38spl loads listed
6.0gr of it as a full power load. I bought it.

Taking my treasure home and researching it more, Herco was a
go to powder for 9mm in the 80's. And there were loads for 45ACP.

I ended up setting 6.0 grains of Herco as my standard powder for:

38 Special 158gr cast
9mm Luger 124gr cast
45 ACP 230gr cast

I did this so I could set up 1 Dillon 550 Powder measure with it
and just move the measure from tool head to tool head.

As it turns out, 6gr of Herco also runs the Shields & SIG's in 40 S&W
with 180gr cast.

Now that I powder coat I suppose next May when the snow's off
the ground I should chronograph this load with all my guns and
see what the actual velocities are.

Before I close and the whiners start their keening:
This load works in MY GUNS. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.
It's for CAST LEAD Bullets


It's a shame when you have to Lawyer up in a discussion forum
so a Coprophagic Pin Worm won't try and feed off your input and
you have to color it Yellow & Magenta like it's radioactive.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

800X I use at the rate of 8gr under a 162 gr.cast in my .357 for a soft load(38-44 equivalent).It will bridge in powder measure with small spout so I use my old Bear/Pacific measure with the spout removed and put a funnel under it to be able to check if all the powder went into the brass.I have 10#of it so I had to be creative to find a way to use it.Burns clean and is accurate.
4227 is used in full Mag loads in my .45 Colt(Ruger Blackhawk)and my cast bullets in 38-55.I find it too slow burning to be used in the 44Mag where it'll give up 150fps compared to 296/H110 and almost 100fps to faster burning 2400.
Herco;I've never seen its color so I can't help on that one.

 

[ddixie884]

If you have those three powders, you can probably load a lot of handgun calibers. All are listed in older manuals. You can probably view these manuals on line if you spend a little time searching............

 

[glenwolde]

The following comes from castpics.net

 

[RobertJ.]

800X has become my "go to" powder for .45 Colt and reduced .44 Magnum loads using hard cast lead bullets. I get outstanding results, accuracy wise, with both. I haven't experienced any metering problems with my RCBS Uniflow.

A few years ago (during the great component shortage) I tried IMR4227 in my .357 Magnum, and got great results with that, too.

I subscribe to loaddata.com, and find it to be well worth the 30 bucks a year.

 

[shocker]

Does anyone have reliable sources for mid range ~900 fps loads for the 357 Magnum, using Magnum a brass and standard primers?

That's just a bit warmer than 38 SPC +P assuming a 158 gr bullet.
IMO, a fast powder is better suited to reduced magnum loads. You will use less powder and get cleaner burns. With my personal favorite Accurate 2 that's 5.9 gr according to the manual. W231 would work great too.

 

[SLT223]

I would think for 900fps 4227 is completely out of the question unless you are actually trying to lock up your gun. That powder needs a compressed charge to burn halfway decent in 357. For 900fps I think you’ll do very well with any of the fast or mid range powders.

 

[cowboy4evr]

I have used 4227 for many a year . I only use it for magnum loads , 357 , 41, 44 magnum . I always make sure it is a slightly compressed load , depending on bullet design and I always , always use a " FULL " magnum primer . Not those " in between " kind like Winchester or Remington . CCI is my choice when using 4227 . I tried in 45 Colt years ago , but decided the pressure wasn't high enough for a good complete burn . IMO , Faster burn powders work best in 45 Colt , 44 special , 45acp , 38 special etc . I have never tried 800X . I have in the past used Herco but have none right now . It's on my next " to buy powder list " . Regards, Paul

 

[boatbum101]

800X is a weigh every charge powder . If you're willing to deal with that it does produce accurate loads . It doesn't like to be crowded & can get spiky when approaching max loads .
4227 has been used for years in reduced cast bullet loads in many rifle calibers . It also works well in magnum pistol . It works best with higher charges & doesn't do well in reduced loads in magnum rounds . While not producing top velocities it does produce accurate loads .
Herco one doesn't see much any more as most use Unique . Like all flake powders it don't meter all that well but it too will produce accurate loads .
For loads in a 357 @ 900fps you'd be better served by one of the faster pistol powders ie Bullseye , W231 etc.

 

[DWalt]

I have never used 800-X for anything. But at one time I used Herco for some fairly warm .38 Super FMJ loads. I also use IMR/H 4227 extensively for numerous lead bullet CF rifle loads, especially .300 Savage and .308 Win. I don't think there is a better propellant than 4227 for use with lead bullets in a rifle, clear up to .45-70. Tried it once for .30 Carbine, but you can't get enough of it crammed into a .30 Carbine case to get the necessary MV from a carbine. Back early on in my life, I used 4227 for .44 Magnum awhile. It was OK for heavy loads, but I no longer load the .44 Mag heavily.

 

[Masboy]

4227 is my favorite in my 657 41 mag classic hunter with 210 gr xtp,460xvr with 300gr xtp mag . Crazy accurate in both

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Hello guys; The three used to be prominently displayed in most reloading manuals, but no more. Does anyone have reliable sources for mid range ~900 fps loads for the 357 Magnum, using Magnum brass and standard primers? Would some of the older reloading manuals (avoiding Speer #8) be good sources of information?
Or would the old standby, 2400, do everything they can, and perhaps a bit more? Bullseye and the like need not apply.
Thanx

My first loading manual used for a few years was the Speer #8.......Never had any problems.

 

[flash60601]

In 357MAG, 4227 likes to be at or near max. Lesser pressures will result in lots more unburned powder and residue. (Just let a few of those unburned granules get underneath your extractor and see how fast your Model 19 quits working.)

In 357Magnum, Herco (at least in my experience) gets freaky approaching max loads. Pressure builds a lot for a small increase in charge. My "Pycho-Girlfriend" of powders.

I have used 800X for light loads in 38SPL, and have two pounds of it around, but always seem to overlook it when loading by using a more popular powder.