How many grains of powder ?

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Well, there are literally zero true, full-spec and proper .357 Magnum loads that have ever used 1, 2 or 3 grains of powder.

Starting at it's most basic (as we have no idea of your level of knowledge or your intent) it first makes sense to note clearly that in this endeavor, a "grain" is actually a standard unit of measurement. So simply to be clear, a grain isn't a "granule" or a piece of powder, it is a weight measurement whereby 7,000 grains equals one pound.

Full-spec .357 Magnum (properly!) uses a powder that is a bit slower with regards to burn rate, relative to other handgun ammo. While a target level load might use a faster powder and 5-6 grains of it, a "late 70's Winchester metal piercing 158gr" case would typically use a slower burning powder and MUCH more of it, such as the 15-17 grains mentioned in a post above mine.

Commercial ammo typically doesn't use the same powder that handloaders can purchase. They tend to use HUGE lots of powder that they alter to do specifically what they want that powder to do. They don't read a load recipe from a book like many handloaders do, they load a charge and test it and alter things from that point to get the result they desire and they do this in controlled laboratory conditions with a bankroll that exceeds the handloader's typical net worth.

And in the 1970's, they had much more primitive equipment and it is likely that they didn't have nearly the full idea of what they were making and selling nearly as well as they do these days.

Often we will have an author show up at the forum to ask questions similar to yours so that he can write something in a fiction novel that will read well even to those select few that will appreciate the level of detail. The general audience here include exactly those kinds of folks and nobody has ever minded these kinds of questions and are happy to help.

But the process tends to run more smoothly when the person who asks the question gives some sort of background or goal behind the question. Otherwise, to many of us, it reads as if perhaps some neophyte might attempt something downright dangerous using poor research.

Ok, we could then expect Tex1001s late '60s metal piercing 357 magnum case to contain 15-17 grains (0.971984-1.10158 gr.) ?

I just need the info for some research, don't have a gun nor a bullet, nor planning to get one :)
 
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if
you know the velocity and charge weight you can atrempt
to cross reference published load data to duplicate with with know powder and load.
 
Glad you got your answer.

If you look up ".357 Magnum case capacity" online you would find one holds 27 grains. Subtract the space the bullet takes up seated into it and you can make a reasonable estimate - more than 1 and less than 26.
 
After reading this thread I still can't imagine why you want the answer so badly. It will be a completely meaningless piece of information, whether it's two grains or twenty.

i'll have a follow up question for you, when I get what you call "meaningless piece of information" from Tex1001
 
Ok, we could then expect Tex1001s late '60s metal piercing 357 magnum case to contain 15-17 grains (0.971984-1.10158 gr.) ?

I just need the info for some research, don't have a gun nor a bullet, nor planning to get one :)

I would say that it is beyond possible, perhaps even approaching probable but at the same time... I wouldn't bet my money on it.

If I were headed to my load bench right now to load a 158gr jacketed bullet up for full-nuts .357 Magnum, the load that has worked nicely for me would be carrying 18.6 grains of a powder that Winchester did not use in the 1960's or 1970's. :D
 
Glad you got your answer.

If you look up ".357 Magnum case capacity" online you would find one holds 27 grains. Subtract the space the bullet takes up seated into it and you can make a reasonable estimate - more than 1 and less than 26.

I don't have the answer yet, I am waiting for Tex1001 answer
 
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Okay, here we are:

Cartridge loaded with EXACTLY 14.0 gr., no more, no less, of a very fine grained powder. Charge weighed 6(SIX) times, three on electronic scale, three on balance beam scale.
Pictures are below. Note the July, 1969 price. Box photo'd with an intact cartridge and the pulled projectile.
Notice that the bullet is swaged lead with a pointed cap made of what appears to be gilding metal (Non magnetic).

This report is worth every cent that you paid for it. :)
 

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After reading this thread I still can't imagine why you want the answer so badly. It will be a completely meaningless piece of information, whether it's two grains or twenty.

What is meaningless to you is relatively important to him. Andrew has stated that he is not trying to duplicate a load. Like he stated twice already, he is simply doing research. I don't really care. I'm doing a favor for a new member. Over the years members here have done favors for me. I'm paying it forward.

He has his info. Now he can sleep at night.
 
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Wow, I wonder if those suckers leaded up some barrels?

Have you ever chrono'd any of them? I wonder what kind of speed they are running at? If the bearing surface is swaged lead, they may scoot along pretty swiftly!
 
Wow, I wonder if those suckers leaded up some barrels?

As I recall, they leaded up my old Python pretty quickly. This is what's left of a two box purchase and this box is almost full.
Never been chrono'd. I have had no desire to. Like I stated above, we did some non-technical evaluations and at the time none of us were impressed.
 
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Okay, here we are:

Cartridge loaded with EXACTLY 14.0 gr., no more, no less, of a very fine grained powder. Charge weighed 6(SIX) times, three on electronic scale, three on balance beam scale.
Pictures are below. Note the July, 1969 price. Box photo'd with an intact cartridge and the pulled projectile.
Notice that the bullet is swaged lead with a pointed cap made of what appears to be gilding metal (Non magnetic).

This report is worth every cent that you paid for it. :)

I am so thankful, I couldn't have got a better answer ! Thank you for your understanding, Tex1001 ! :)
 
"Originally Posted by Tom K View Post
After reading this thread I still can't imagine why you want the answer so badly. It will be a completely meaningless piece of information, whether it's two grains or twenty."

i'll have a follow up question for you, when I get what you call "meaningless piece of information" from Tex1001

and the follow up question is?
 
and the follow up question is?
Is it now possible to return let's say only 3.0 gr of the 14.0 gr into the case ? And what would be the result on recoil, sound, velocity ? how much difference would it be from 14.0 gr to 3.0 gr in the case ?
 
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While it would be technically possible, it would be a very bad idea. Going from 14gr. way down to 3gr. of what is undoubtedly a very slow pistol powder would reduce muzzle velocity dangerously and might very well lodge a bullet in the handgun's barrel.
Finding a reduced charge of the original powder that MIGHT reliably reduce muzzle velocity would involve:

1 Pulling the bullet so as not to deform it
2 Removing a very small amount of original powder
3 Recording how much powder was removed from the original powder charge
4 Replacing the bullet
5 Firing the bullet to observe and record ballistic characteristics

The five steps listed above are theoretical in nature.
PERFORMING THESE STEPS IN THE REAL WORLD WOULD BE EXTREMELY IRRESPONSIBLE!
PEOPLE HAVE PROBABLY BEEN INJURED OR KILLED AS A RESULT OF ATTEMPTING THIS!

No responsible person should ever reduce a factory powder charge at all, much less as drastically as you have suggested.
Tinkering with charges of a powder with unknown ballistic characteristics is always dangerous.
 
While it would be technically possible, it would be a very bad idea. Going from 14gr. way down to 3gr. of what is undoubtedly a very slow pistol powder would reduce muzzle velocity dangerously and might very well lodge a bullet in the handgun's barrel.
Finding a reduced charge of the original powder that MIGHT reliably reduce muzzle velocity would involve:

1 Pulling the bullet so as not to deform it
2 Removing a very small amount of original powder
3 Recording how much powder was removed from the original powder charge
4 Replacing the bullet
5 Firing the bullet to observe and record ballistic characteristics

The five steps listed above are theoretical in nature.
PERFORMING THESE STEPS IN THE REAL WORLD WOULD BE EXTREMELY IRRESPONSIBLE!
PEOPLE HAVE PROBABLY BEEN INJURED OR KILLED AS A RESULT OF ATTEMPTING THIS!

No responsible person should ever reduce a factory powder charge at all, much less as drastically as you have suggested.
Tinkering with charges of a powder with unknown ballistic characteristics is always dangerous.
ok, ok no one is going to do that !

But what would be the result on recoil, sound, velocity ? let's say at only 5.0 gr ? you didn't answer that

And another thing, judging from your post, this would certainly not be something an amateur would do, but only a very experienced reloader with deep knowhow in reloading data and so on, since it's so extremely dangerous ?
 
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If you disassembled a round of that stuff and had ONLY the original powder from that round to put back in to that round, a 5.0gr charge of that powder may very well not even get the bullet far in to the bore. It could move the bullet forward enough to lodge it in the barrel just enough where it will stop and allow the bit of gas to escape behind it out the cylinder gap.

However, if you had 5.0gr of a fast burning powder such as Titegroup or Bullseye then you would get a typical discharge/shot fired, but it wouldn't have the power, bullet speed, deep sound or recoil that 14 grains of the slower burning (proper) powder would give it.

To actually do all of the above, you needn't necessarily be skilled but you would need the proper tools, and only a handloader would have those tools available.
 
If you disassembled a round of that stuff and had ONLY the original powder from that round to put back in to that round, a 5.0gr charge of that powder may very well not even get the bullet far in to the bore. It could move the bullet forward enough to lodge it in the barrel just enough where it will stop and allow the bit of gas to escape behind it out the cylinder gap.

However, if you had 5.0gr of a fast burning powder such as Titegroup or Bullseye then you would get a typical discharge/shot fired, but it wouldn't have the power, bullet speed, deep sound or recoil that 14 grains of the slower burning (proper) powder would give it.

To actually do all of the above, you needn't necessarily be skilled but you would need the proper tools, and only a handloader would have those tools available.

It seems that I am not getting any answer to my follow up question, because I randomly say "3.0 gr" or "5.0 gr" ?

So I try this way: If you have less than 14,0 gr factory powder, any amount less. What would be the result or effect on recoil, sound and velocity ?

I do understand that nothing changes at 13,0 gr, so pic a leser gr

When will the recoil, sound and velocity change ?

And once again, I am not planing to do this. I don't have the 1969 bullet, Tex has the 1969 bullet and factory powder
 
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To add clarity to the discussion, in 1990 I shot through the 1/4" thick steel web of an I-beam at approximately 25 yards with a 30 Herrett Thompson Center Contender. The bullet was cast lead 130 grains with a gas check. Muzzle velocity was 1,500 FPS measured on my chronograph.
 
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