How many grains of powder ?

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Is this thread disturbing anybody else?

Sounds to me like someone (who know nothing about guns, technically) is trying to a write a "mystery" where the sneaky villain, or perhaps the resourceful hero MacGyvers a round that will silently kill a sentry, (evil stepsister) leaving the bullet completely inside, and perhaps no trace the deed had been done?

With a name like Andrew Webber, is it a musical?
 
Well after reading all the posts
I will ask the OP this
You never state why u need this info?
You want very specific info
I have been around firearms all of my life
From what I gather from your responses
You are one ...
trying to replicate ammo that is very lethal and damaging to the human body with no experience which is not only very foolish but can be deadly..
Two... u are a writer trying to get exact info to make your writing more accurate
Three...lawyer trying to get info about something u are working on
Four.. someone trying to do something very sneaky and potentially lethal to others and have searched the internet for info to make this reality
Asking for specific ways to replicate decades old ammo that was not the best
I will not give that info out...
This is not only very troubling but feels not right
I caution anyone giving any info out here
They seem to want info to how to inflict most damage to people or animals
I will not participate
God Bless,John



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Is this thread disturbing anybody else?
Very disturbing for sure
God Bless,John
I would not give any info out with out better explanation to why this specific info is needed
Too many been info from all of us to harm others

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Why ? I am just doing some research.

If you don't know the answers, let those who do know the answers, answer.
Can I ask you this
And if are just doing research
What is the research for?
Why such specific info?
Why want to know ?
You want answers without any context?
God Bless,John

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Ok, I'll say it. Giving membership to a person like this who has nothing to contribute and is very obscure about his/ her purposes does nothing to improve or even maintain the image of this website. The questions are so telling of ignorance, that they may indeed be from a juvenile with bad intentions. I can only assume, because the OP is so secretive. The OP says that he/ she isn't interested the very topics upon which this website was founded.
 
Ok, I'll say it. Giving membership to a person like this who has nothing to contribute and is very obscure about his/ her purposes does nothing to improve or even maintain the image of this website. The questions are so telling of ignorance, that they may indeed be from a juvenile with bad intentions. I can only assume, because the OP is so secretive. The OP says that he/ she isn't interested the very topics upon which this website was founded.
Very well said
I feel bad intentions too
We also could be contributing to someone who is not allowed to buy ammo or has had theirs taken away or a child not able to aquire it
They sound very inexperienced with firearms or someone who has never loaded ammo
Either way it sounds like giving a baby a hand grenade

God Bless,John

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...and ever to be heard from again...
And my worry is we hear something about this on the news
I want to know why their first post is about a obscure metal piercing ammo?
This could hurt someone in law enforcement
Not many people seem out metal piercing ammo and even less what to know specs about it unless they are trying to replicate it
We all maybe unwilling giving those who hate and would harm us info to hurt and kill us
God Bless,John

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Sounds to me like someone (who know nothing about guns, technically) is trying to a write a "mystery" where the sneaky villain, or perhaps the resourceful hero MacGyvers a round that will silently kill a sentry, (evil stepsister) leaving the bullet completely inside, and perhaps no trace the deed had been done?
....

Seems the most likely explanation, the real mystery is why the poster is being so obtuse about it. And as I pointed out, even though he received the answer to his original question (14.0 grains of some unknown powder) the information is essentially useless. Without knowing what the powder is, there is no way to know what kind of effect a reduced charge of any kind will have on muzzle velocity.

Furthermore, his real question is, "With the pulled armor piercing bullet of the original Winchester AP ammo, at what muzzle velocity would the bullet fired at contact distance stay inside a human body?"

That brings up even more unknowns. This ammunition was designed to penetrate hard substances so there is no way to estimate its penetration characteristics on flesh, other than to assume that it would be greater than conventional bullets. Even the plain old 158 grain round nose lead bullet in .38 Special (typical muzzle velocity of 850 feet per second) has a reputation for over penetration. One would think a pointed, metal capped AP bullet would be even more likely to exit a body, but there is no way to know at what velocity it would not. 400fps? 600? It is purely guesswork.

Regardless, there isn't any way to estimate what charge of the original powder would create any given velocity because we don't know what it is. And even if we were to guess it was something like Hercules 2400, there isn't any load data for a low velocity with that powder because reduced charges of slow burning powder is a bad idea - every loading manual warns against such shenanigans. A half charge is not going to produce half the velocity, it doesn't work that way.

I guess the good news is that AndrewWeber can take his 14 grain charge and reduce it to whatever he wants, nobody can prove he's wrong.... :rolleyes:
 
Very good ! Now the final and probably most difficult question, judging by the answers so far.

What would be the minimum gr of factory powder necessary for this particular bullet to just go through a human body, not any further, if you hold the gun directly to the chest ? Whats the sufficient velocity ?
Why would u need or want this specific info?


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I hope we all realize this OP might not be on the up and up too
So be careful with any info we give out
I see they are not answering questions now either
God Bless,John

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You're a helpful bunch. ;)
Sometimes, that leads you into pointless discussions.

The best question in this thread had appeared by Post 7--
Exactly how much powder is there in a late 70's Winchester .357 Magnum Metal Piercing 158 gr case?

Can you tell us the reasoning behind your question? If we knew why you're asking, we might be of more help.
As others have said, just knowing the charge weight of a 70's era load is unlikely to be useful.




Andrew,
As others have pointed out, you would probably save a lot of time and effort by stating what your "research" is for.

Are you in Europe?
Just in case- the "gr" abbreviation used here is for grains, NOT for grams.





Is this thread disturbing anybody else?
Why ? I am just doing some research.

If you don't know the answers, let those who do know the answers, answer.


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Seems the most likely explanation, the real mystery is why the poster is being so obtuse about it. And as I pointed out, even though he received the answer to his original question (14.0 grains of some unknown powder) the information is essentially useless. Without knowing what the powder is, there is no way to know what kind of effect a reduced charge of any kind will have on muzzle velocity.

Furthermore, his real question is, "With the pulled armor piercing bullet of the original Winchester AP ammo, at what muzzle velocity would the bullet fired at contact distance stay inside a human body?"

That brings up even more unknowns. This ammunition was designed to penetrate hard substances so there is no way to estimate its penetration characteristics on flesh, other than to assume that it would be greater than conventional bullets. Even the plain old 158 grain round nose lead bullet in .38 Special (typical muzzle velocity of 850 feet per second) has a reputation for over penetration. One would think a pointed, metal capped AP bullet would be even more likely to exit a body, but there is no way to know at what velocity it would not. 400fps? 600? It is purely guesswork.

Regardless, there isn't any way to estimate what charge of the original powder would create any given velocity because we don't know what it is. And even if we were to guess it was something like Hercules 2400, there isn't any load data for a low velocity with that powder because reduced charges of slow burning powder is a bad idea - every loading manual warns against such shenanigans. A half charge is not going to produce half the velocity, it doesn't work that way.

I guess the good news is that AndrewWeber can take his 14 grain charge and reduce it to whatever he wants, nobody can prove he's wrong.... :rolleyes:

That's a lot of words! But you got one thing wrong, I nowhere said what you called the real question,

"With the pulled armor piercing bullet of the original Winchester AP ammo, at what muzzle velocity would the bullet fired at contact distance stay inside a human body?"

it even looked like a quote!

I said nothing about "stay inside a human body" I several times said "go through" a body or a 2x4

But ok, the scaremongers misled you.

Now, your text, i did find something useful. You say

"Even the plain old 158 grain round nose lead bullet in .38 Special (typical muzzle velocity of 850 feet per second) has a reputation for over penetration. One would think a pointed, metal capped AP bullet would be even more likely to exit a body, but there is no way to know at what velocity it would not. 400fps? 600? It is purely guesswork."

which in a couple of ways contradicts

If the factory round has a jacketed 158gr bullet14gr of 2400 powder giving @ 1300fps. Reducing it by 1gr would probably only reduce by 50 or 75fps. 2gr less 100 or 150fps. At @ 10gr you would be less than 1,000fps. Going down to 8gr would be taking a chance on sticking a bullet in barrel.

The bullet of my interest is correctly a "158gr bullet14gr of 2400 powder giving @ 1300fps" and you now say it could penetrate a body at 850fps

If 10gr "would be less than 1,000fps" then 8gr would be 850fps and enough to penetrate a body. But you didn't say at what distance ?
 
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Well you still have not answered any of our questions
Why be so elusive?
Why not tell us why you need this info
I am more than willing to help anyone but this does not seem right
I know I am not the only one thinking this


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Well you still have not answered any of our questions
Why be so elusive?
Why not tell us why you need this info
I am more than willing to help anyone but this does not seem right
I know I am not the only one thinking this


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You forgot to say "God Bless" and I don't have time for your games. If you don't know the answers to any of the Topic questions, why do you post a bunch of posts ?
 
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