The 'Thumbs-Forward' grip????
- Thread starter VictorLouis
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OP
Wow, thanks for the good input. I guess when ammo scarcity ebbs, I am going to have to give this a good college-try. I am already aware of the revolver issue, which is one reason I've not really tried it before. As was pointed out above, there's also the issue of two-differing grips. For an old-dog, I'm not wary of most new tricks.
hogblue
Member
I’m a dinosaur too but it works for me
fredj338
Member
Old timer with old timer grip.
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fredj338
Member
Grip is a personal thing but there are better grips for shooting fast. Thumbs forward is that grip. If you see no point, you probably aren't trying to run 1/4 sec split times. Any grip can be accurate in slow fire, even the crappy old cup/saucer. Thumbs forward allows more control. Same with shooting stances, things evolve as people find a better way. Never say never.
The Combat Grip
Thumbs forward works for me. Here’s a good article explaining it.
Thumbs forward works for me. Here’s a good article explaining it.
THEmodelof1989
Member
You not understanding is exactly why I've instructed thousands of soldiers, Leo professionals, and civilians multiple ways to grip a pistol. Some people don't just don't get it, to them I say "no worries, let me show you this. How does that feel?" There simply are no absolutes; as I stated in my original post, nobody is in a box.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Hmmm, it seems you didn't understand what I was writing. I wasn't saying that you have some crazy idea or that you're wrong, I was seriously wondering what you do. I would like further explanation. Like I said, I agree with you that not everything works for every one. So, maybe you have something I could use.
Please excuse my poor typing skills if what I wrote gave you the impression that I thought you were wrong or exaggerating. The opposite is true. I really would like to know more about the grip you're talking about.
THEmodelof1989
Member
Your typing skills are excellent. Some of the best writers have made a decent living because they can convey the correct tone through words, this is something that I'll be working at until I die, as I unintentionally come off defensive quite often, and I am working on it.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about using other grips if you already have something that works for you. I'm not a fan on the saucer grip and won't teach it to a cherry at all, but if a shooter is comfortable with it and can use it quickly and accurately I have no qualms with that shooter using that style. Aside from that, people that shoot well using a particular style aren't typically receptive to training a different style. They do what they do well, and that good enough for them. Meanwhile I'm in the corner of the range practicing my non-dominant one handed shooting from cover.
Going thumb forward with one hand for most shooters takes some mastering, because it offers less purchase on something that's going to buck. Less purchase could cause the pistol to shift in your hand slightly, this could cause all kinds of issues in a followup shot, should that be necessary. It's not too big a deal. I won't train someone out of shooting thumb forward with one handed shots, but as an instructor and enthusiast, I warn about possible failures of the style.
I was taught the tumbs-forward grip by my SIG semi-autos. I used to use a high thumb grip on my M&P semi-autos, because it felt comfortable to me. M&Ps have takedown levers that are rounded down toward the edges and recessed into the grip. The result is that they slide smoothly under my thumb under recoil. In contrast, my SIGs (P320, P250, P229) all have thick, blocky takedown levers with squared off edges, and they are not recessed. When those hit my thumb under recoil, it hurts! Fortunately, the front of each SIG takedown lever has a smooth recessed spot designed to hold a thumb tip. So SIG apparently has determined that a thumbs-forward grip is optimal, and you will use it: "You vill comply, and ve vill punish you if you don't!"
I've gotten used to the thumbs-forward grip, and to simplify things, I use it on all my semi-autos.
I've gotten used to the thumbs-forward grip, and to simplify things, I use it on all my semi-autos.
gwpercle
Member
Just grip a handgun the way it feels best for you and the way that gives you the best accuracy and keep thumbs off safeties , levers and slides .
Every persons hands , thumbs and fingers are different...no one way fits all and whoever tells you my way is the only way is a fool .
Go shooting and see what works for you...not them.
Gary
Every persons hands , thumbs and fingers are different...no one way fits all and whoever tells you my way is the only way is a fool .
Go shooting and see what works for you...not them.
Gary
I didn't read all the posts so don't know if it's been said. The two thumbs forward gives the best 360°/degree control of a semi auto.
The "source"? check the history via I-net
Sometimes....Google is your friend, sometimes not but a quick check this morning brought up a September 24, 2010 gun mag article called "The Combat Grip-Handguns" that attributed the two thumbs forward technique to Brian Enos and Rob Leatham in the early 1980's. Both Grand Masters for USPSA/IPSC and Enos was with S&W among others.
As of the date of the article (09-24-2010) the writer stated that all serious shooters were using this method.
Again...…...at minimum an interesting read if nothing else on these "stay home" days.
I just put "thumbs forward handgun theory history" in my search engine and up came several hits, including a "Wikipedia" but go to the one I mentioned to get what I thought was the best detail about why it enhances accuracy with semi's.
I've always used thumb-over-thumb ever since Army days and my Model 39 up against my Browning HP last June was OK with me....but now...….next available range day (hopefully still in 2020) I am clearly going to try this thumbs forward technique.
Sometimes....Google is your friend, sometimes not but a quick check this morning brought up a September 24, 2010 gun mag article called "The Combat Grip-Handguns" that attributed the two thumbs forward technique to Brian Enos and Rob Leatham in the early 1980's. Both Grand Masters for USPSA/IPSC and Enos was with S&W among others.
As of the date of the article (09-24-2010) the writer stated that all serious shooters were using this method.
Again...…...at minimum an interesting read if nothing else on these "stay home" days.
I just put "thumbs forward handgun theory history" in my search engine and up came several hits, including a "Wikipedia" but go to the one I mentioned to get what I thought was the best detail about why it enhances accuracy with semi's.
I've always used thumb-over-thumb ever since Army days and my Model 39 up against my Browning HP last June was OK with me....but now...….next available range day (hopefully still in 2020) I am clearly going to try this thumbs forward technique.
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fredj338
Member
I am not so sure your thoughts on thumbs forward offers LESS grip is correct. I am an old school shooter/instructor, been thru all the changes in grip & stance, so while I tend to agree, don't fix what isn't broken, there are better ways to do most things, shooting is not different. So while I would have a diff time getting an older shooter to switch, it took me a few 1000 rds, I teach thumbs forward because it is in fact a better way to run a pistol fast & accurate. It is why the best shooters use it.
So I guess it is a matter of how one gauges "shooting well". In defensive shooting it is fast accurate hits. WHy a grip like cup/saucer doesn't work. A good grip is everything for running a pistol fast & accurate. It is probably the most important thing, then trigger manipulation. The reason I rank grip #1 is it is diff to have a good trigger manipulation with a poor grip. You will never achieve 1/4sec accurate split times at say 10y with most other grips imo.
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ContinentalOp
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I would agree with those who said competition shooters Brian Enos and Rob Leatham originated the thumbs forward grip. That's what I've always read.
FWIW, the first time I recall someone recommending the thumbs forward grip in a self defense context was Kelly McCann, writing under the pseudonym Jim Grover, back in the 90s.
When I started shooting handguns, I used a thumb-over-thumb grip with a Weaver stance with both revolvers and semi-autos.
I took a rather long hiatus from shooting and when I got back into it I started experimenting. I wanted to use techniques that were simpler and worked with my natural, instinctive reactions rather than against them, so I gravitated towards more of an Isoceles stance. Then I started working with the thumbs forward grip and eventually found that it was an improvement in terms of shot-to-shot recovery. When I used the thumb-over-thumb grip, my muzzle/front sight would go up and to the left after every shot. With a thumbs-forward grip, the muzzle/front sight tracked more vertically and more consistently. The recoil energy also felt like it was coming more straight back than up with my thumbs forward.
I still use thumb-over-thumb with revolvers. I have no interest in having my thumb exposed to the cylinder gap when shooting. At first my concern was getting the grips confused when switching between revolvers and semi-autos, but I will switch when practicing, including dry fire practice drills where I switch from my semi-auto primary to my revolver BUG, and haven't run into any problems. "Muscle memory" seems to be ingrained enough to know which grip to use based on what gun my hand hits.
I will still occasionally use a Weaver stance, mostly when shooting long distance offhand, and for that I use a thumb-over-thumb grip.
One interesting tidbit. If you look at the support-hand wrist angle when shooting Isoceles with thumbs forward, and compare it to using thumb-over-thumb with the Weaver stance, you'll see the angles are the same.
I do think there are biomechanical reasons why thumbs forward is better than thumb-over-thumb, but people have different hand/finger/wrist architecture, not to mention possible medical conditions, that could require one or the other grip/stance techniques. Ultimately it's up to each person to experiment and figure out what works best for them, ideally under the supervision of a good instructor experienced with a variety of techniques.
Just my opinion.
FWIW, the first time I recall someone recommending the thumbs forward grip in a self defense context was Kelly McCann, writing under the pseudonym Jim Grover, back in the 90s.
When I started shooting handguns, I used a thumb-over-thumb grip with a Weaver stance with both revolvers and semi-autos.
I took a rather long hiatus from shooting and when I got back into it I started experimenting. I wanted to use techniques that were simpler and worked with my natural, instinctive reactions rather than against them, so I gravitated towards more of an Isoceles stance. Then I started working with the thumbs forward grip and eventually found that it was an improvement in terms of shot-to-shot recovery. When I used the thumb-over-thumb grip, my muzzle/front sight would go up and to the left after every shot. With a thumbs-forward grip, the muzzle/front sight tracked more vertically and more consistently. The recoil energy also felt like it was coming more straight back than up with my thumbs forward.
I still use thumb-over-thumb with revolvers. I have no interest in having my thumb exposed to the cylinder gap when shooting. At first my concern was getting the grips confused when switching between revolvers and semi-autos, but I will switch when practicing, including dry fire practice drills where I switch from my semi-auto primary to my revolver BUG, and haven't run into any problems. "Muscle memory" seems to be ingrained enough to know which grip to use based on what gun my hand hits.
I will still occasionally use a Weaver stance, mostly when shooting long distance offhand, and for that I use a thumb-over-thumb grip.
One interesting tidbit. If you look at the support-hand wrist angle when shooting Isoceles with thumbs forward, and compare it to using thumb-over-thumb with the Weaver stance, you'll see the angles are the same.
I do think there are biomechanical reasons why thumbs forward is better than thumb-over-thumb, but people have different hand/finger/wrist architecture, not to mention possible medical conditions, that could require one or the other grip/stance techniques. Ultimately it's up to each person to experiment and figure out what works best for them, ideally under the supervision of a good instructor experienced with a variety of techniques.
Just my opinion.
flagman1776
Member
Originated, I couldn't begin to say who originated thumbs forward but I know Jeff Cooper promoted the thumbs forward in his DVD instructional set back in the 1970s? Being a 1911 man, the thumb was on top of the safety to prevent accidental engagement. Again, this doesn't address the origin.
Personally, I'm inclined to support thumb over the shooting hand knuckle.
Also a dino.
Personally, I'm inclined to support thumb over the shooting hand knuckle.
Also a dino.
fredj338
Member
THat isn't thumbs forward. Both thumbs align with the slide. Cooper never taught that to my knowledge.
ContinentalOp
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I'm not sure about that. I had a Jeff Cooper instructional video on VHS back in the 90s. I don't recall what thumb grip he used for two-handed shooting. Though, to be fair, the only things I actually remember from the video was his discussion on the awareness color codes and the "compressed surprise break." Don't know why that in particular would stick in my memory. But I digress...
I did find this picture of Jeff Cooper using a two-handed hold on a 1911. It shows his thumbs crossed, with his left thumb over his right thumb, but sticking up. FWIW, this is what I've been describing as thumb-over-thumb, at least with semi-autos, and is how I gripped them when using a Weaver stance (but with my right thumb below the thumb safety...my 1911s had standard Colt safeties so accidentally engaging them while shooting wasn't an issue).
Funny enough, when I searched for such images, the vast majority didn't show the left side of the gun, showing thumb placement. Most were from his right side.
Edit: Just found another image with both thumbs in the same direction, but definitely not the thumbs-forward grip we've been discussing.
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I agree with gwpercel ! I started with revolvers in the late 60’s, (22’s, 38/357mag’s, 41/44 mag’s) and didn’t start shooting pistols until the 80’s. I use the cup/saucer Grip Still to this day (72 years young).
I turned in my badge at 65. I’ve shot 300/300 with revolvers at State and Fed requals and when we transitioned to pistols shot best of 52 officers at Fed requals.
My issue is I sometimes carry a J frame size revolver with/or a S&W 380 bodyguard or 9mm M&P EZ for concealed carry.
As mentioned above, thumbs forward on a revolver is a BAD idea.
I don’t want ANY hesitation on thinking about my grip in a stressful situation, and I’ve trained in stressful situations so one grip fits both platforms.
The thumbs forward works if you only carry a pistol, have trained and are accurate/proficient with that grip. JMO
For me the grip I’ve used for 50 plus years works well for both platforms and is instinctual ! Just Sayen.
Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
I turned in my badge at 65. I’ve shot 300/300 with revolvers at State and Fed requals and when we transitioned to pistols shot best of 52 officers at Fed requals.
My issue is I sometimes carry a J frame size revolver with/or a S&W 380 bodyguard or 9mm M&P EZ for concealed carry.
As mentioned above, thumbs forward on a revolver is a BAD idea.
I don’t want ANY hesitation on thinking about my grip in a stressful situation, and I’ve trained in stressful situations so one grip fits both platforms.
The thumbs forward works if you only carry a pistol, have trained and are accurate/proficient with that grip. JMO
For me the grip I’ve used for 50 plus years works well for both platforms and is instinctual ! Just Sayen.
Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
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